[Akhenaten]

$1:

Not willing to debate? Give me a break--you never responded to any of my points, and of the questions I asked you

I responded to all your points and then quit once you became a flametard.

Neither you nor Brenda seem to be able to come to terms with the INARGUABLE FACT that NATO is allowing the Afghans to make whatever choices about burkas and schools and voting that they want and that the Taliban will not -- the Taliban will force their own 'culture' on the rest of Afghanistan and the two are not the same. You can try and argue that for a 1000 posts and you will still be self-evidently wrong. NATO is not sticking rifles in the backs of people forcing them to wear or not wear anything, forcing anyone to go to school or forcing anyone to vote for that matter. That you try to make equivalencies between this and the Taliban is incorrect and you know it. If you don't you're not worth my time. I don't believe that you believe your own statements for a moment, you're just trying to save face. If you don't take yourself seriously, why should I?

$1:

Clearly you don't like having your assumptions challenged.

Nope, that's you. As soon as I pointed out the difference between bras and burkas you immediately started with your "arrogant assumption of moral superiority" crap. You throw that out there because you couldn't handle being wrong.
And laugh at you? TFB. When you do something stupid like compare a womans choice to wear a bra with women being forced to wear a burka under threat of death you can't help but make people laugh and I'm sure I'm not the only one who did.

[putz]

Brenda Brenda:

What is the difference with the West, say... 300 years ago?

And to come back to Belgium... YES, it is important. Europe is important. I guess not in your narrow mind, but yes, it is the west, and it is important. Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, France, The UK...

Do you think Canada is the only one sending troops??? And losing troops???

First your argument with the west is weak at best. Were not talking about 300 years ago were talking about now. Secondly, Europe is more about protecting their own identity then embracing other cultures. The only reason that you hear more about the Muslim community is because of the outcry. For example, if your from Morocco and you move to England you are no longer Moroccan. That is the thinking over there. My understanding is that all of Europe is like that. When was the last time you spoke to a foreigner here and got the answer I'm Canadian.

[Brenda]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

$1:

Europe is important. I guess not in your narrow mind, but yes, it is the west, and it is important.

No what happens in Belgium is not relevant on a discussion of 'forcing our culture on Afghanistan'. Especially your point about 'ripping off burkas off school children' which we aren't doing.

Taliban = No choice which is what the Afghan culture had - a choice to wear the hajib or not.

NATO = They decide for themselves. No 'pushing' our culture on them.




BTW - I didn't insult you but you can't help doing it yourself. This is because you know full well you're wrong.

What do you not understand about "it is prohibited to wear a burka, hajib or any facecovering in public places and in schools"? That is NOT ripping off culture?
(Btw, kids do not wear hajibs until they get their periods... I was refering to the teachers, the adult women (that happen to wear breast covering too. By choice, according to you))
Muslims have the choice. Afghani's have the choice. Not every Afghani is Taliban. Not every Muslim is Taliban.

You tried from the start to put me down by naming me in every sentence, so yes, your condescending tone is pretty insulting. There is no wrong or right here, just a difference of opinion. I see the people as people. You see them as "Taliban, an organistaion we have to get rid of, at all cost."

[Brenda]

putz putz:

Brenda Brenda:

What is the difference with the West, say... 300 years ago?

And to come back to Belgium... YES, it is important. Europe is important. I guess not in your narrow mind, but yes, it is the west, and it is important. Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany, France, The UK...

Do you think Canada is the only one sending troops??? And losing troops???

First your argument with the west is weak at best. Were not talking about 300 years ago were talking about now. Secondly, Europe is more about protecting their own identity then embracing other cultures. The only reason that you hear more about the Muslim community is because of the outcry. For example, if your from Morocco and you move to England you are no longer Moroccan. That is the thinking over there. My understanding is that all of Europe is like that. When was the last time you spoke to a foreigner here and got the answer I'm Canadian.

Constantly we say "Islam is a religion that is 500 years behind, and so are the muslim countries. Now it is weak? ok.
I don't agree with you on the Europe part. A Moroccan will ALWAYS be a Moroccan because he is not allowed to change his citizenship. Regardless if he becomes British. All of Europe is definitely not like you say. Acutally, my friends husband is originally from Holland. He is Canadian. I am not Canadian, I am not here that long, and I wonder if I will ever be. Why? Because I have to get rid of my Dutch Nationality when I do. I do not know if I would like that. Not yet. I am proud to be Dutch.I would be proud to be Canadian too. But... THAT will never happen. It is either or. Many immigrants have the same problems. Many immigrants are not accepted, because they have a different view of the world.

[Zipperfish]

putz putz:

After reviewing the last 7 pages of posts I feel inclined to weigh in. I would like to see what happens to a woman in Taliban ruled Afghanistan if she walked around topless. My educated guess dead before she got 15 feet. One of our interpreters told me a story of how his sister was stoned to death for being in public without a man. Zipper your analogies are weak at best. Your trying to compare a religiously run society with a free democracy. I personally believe that things are better in Afghanistan right now then they were under the Taliban. Try talking to some local Afghans on your next trip to Afghanistan I love how people some people here automatically dismiss the mission, and disregard any ACTUAL experiences that people here have had. Let me share somethings that I heard DIRECTLY from locals about the Taliban rule in Afghanistan.

- An Afghani whom said that his sister had never been to school, she was 15 at the fall of Taliban rule now able to return to school.

- An Afghani now serving in CF that had to flee from Afghanistan, into Russia then Germany and eventually to Canada. All because his father had a falling out with the local Mullah and refused to join the Taliban.

- The simple fact that women are able to come up to us WITHOUT a male around and actually talk to us. The ability to drive around Kandahar City see women without Burqas on.

I could write at length about more things some chilling and others heart breaking.
Anybody that compares the life in Afghanistan, post ISAF and during Taliban rule, to that of Canada is a FUCKING MORON IMO!

Well, you're no intellectual giant yourself there buddy.

I hate to burst your bubble with facts but here we go:

First of all, as I've stated several dozen times on the this and many other threads, I supported the invasion of Afghanistan and the toppling of the Taliban. That's hardly, as you put it, "dismissing the mission." Quite the contrary, I'm the one sticking to the mission while you guys are suffering from advanced "mission creep," in your zeal to bring your way of life to the unwashed masses of Afghanistan.

Regardless of what you "personally believe," most analyses I've seen have remarked that the security situation is deteriorating in Afghanistan. As is the democracy. In my opinion, this is partially due to the fact that this morphed from a military camapign with objectvies based on our national interests to a crusade to civlize the barbarians based on a bunch of moral claptrap. Your mushy post tends to reinforce my opinion.

[putz]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

putz putz:

After reviewing the last 7 pages of posts I feel inclined to weigh in. I would like to see what happens to a woman in Taliban ruled Afghanistan if she walked around topless. My educated guess dead before she got 15 feet. One of our interpreters told me a story of how his sister was stoned to death for being in public without a man. Zipper your analogies are weak at best. Your trying to compare a religiously run society with a free democracy. I personally believe that things are better in Afghanistan right now then they were under the Taliban. Try talking to some local Afghans on your next trip to Afghanistan I love how people some people here automatically dismiss the mission, and disregard any ACTUAL experiences that people here have had. Let me share somethings that I heard DIRECTLY from locals about the Taliban rule in Afghanistan.

- An Afghani whom said that his sister had never been to school, she was 15 at the fall of Taliban rule now able to return to school.

- An Afghani now serving in CF that had to flee from Afghanistan, into Russia then Germany and eventually to Canada. All because his father had a falling out with the local Mullah and refused to join the Taliban.

- The simple fact that women are able to come up to us WITHOUT a male around and actually talk to us. The ability to drive around Kandahar City see women without Burqas on.

I could write at length about more things some chilling and others heart breaking.
Anybody that compares the life in Afghanistan, post ISAF and during Taliban rule, to that of Canada is a FUCKING MORON IMO!

Well, you're no intellectual giant yourself there buddy.

I hate to burst your bubble with facts but here we go:

First of all, as I've stated several dozen times on the this and many other threads, I supported the invasion of Afghanistan and the toppling of the Taliban. That's hardly, as you put it, "dismissing the mission." Quite the contrary, I'm the one sticking to the mission while you guys are suffering from advanced "mission creep," in your zeal to bring your way of life to the unwashed masses of Afghanistan.

Regardless of what you "personally believe," most analyses I've seen have remarked that the security situation is deteriorating in Afghanistan. As is the democracy. In my opinion, this is partially due to the fact that this morphed from a military camapign with objectvies based on our national interests to a crusade to civlize the barbarians based on a bunch of moral claptrap. Your mushy post tends to reinforce my opinion.

Can you even tell me what the original mission was without Wiki? Somehow I doubt it.

[Zipperfish]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

I responded to all your points and then quit once you became a flametard.

again--check the very first word of your very first post.

$1:

Neither you nor Brenda seem to be able to come to terms with the INARGUABLE FACT that NATO is allowing the Afghans to make whatever choices about burkas and schools and voting that they want and that the Taliban will not -- the Taliban will force their own 'culture' on the rest of Afghanistan and the two are not the same. You can try and argue that for a 1000 posts and you will still be self-evidently wrong. NATO is not sticking rifles in the backs of people forcing them to wear or not wear anything, forcing anyone to go to school or forcing anyone to vote for that matter. That you try to make equivalencies between this and the Taliban is incorrect and you know it. If you don't you're not worth my time. I don't believe that you believe your own statements for a moment, you're just trying to save face. If you don't take yourself seriously, why should I?

OK, so here you're stating that (a) your point is inarguable and (b) if you don't agree wiht me, you're not worth my time. Please see my earlier posts about (a) not liking having your assumptions questions, (b) reacting with hostility, and (c) assuming that your morality is absolute.

I have taken this seriosuly (and again I would refer to your first word of your frist response to me; not so "serious" was it?). I've tried to make my point several times in several different ways. Obviously I'm not doing a good job of communicating it or you're not trying hard enough to understand it, because as far as you're concerned, I seem to be saying that the Taliban and Canada are morally equivalent. I am not. I am dismissing the moral argument altogether.

$1:

Nope, that's you. As soon as I pointed out the difference between bras and burkas you immediately started with your "arrogant assumption of moral superiority" crap. You throw that out there because you couldn't handle being wrong.
And laugh at you? TFB. When you do something stupid like compare a womans choice to wear a bra with women being forced to wear a burka under threat of death you can't help but make people laugh and I'm sure I'm not the only one who did.

No I do enjoy having my assumptions challenged. Immensely, in fact. I have, I realize, an iconoclastic outlook. Anyways, you admit here that you ridiculed my initial response (which, as I've stated umpteen times, you misinterpreted), so again it's seems a little disingenuous for you to get all offended by my response.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

OK, so here you're stating that (a) your point is inarguable and (b) if you don't agree wiht me, you're not worth my time. Please see my earlier posts about (a) not liking having your assumptions questions, (b) reacting with hostility, and (c) assuming that your morality is absolute.

No I just don't enjoy or see the point in debating with someone insincere.

You and brenda keep making the same chant: "NATO is forcing Western Culture on Afghans".

No they aren't and you haven't brought forward one thing that remotely suggests that we are. I point out:
- Is NATO forcing people to vote? No. They aren't. They do that of their own free will
- Is NATO forcing people to go to school? No. They aren't. They do that of their own free will
- Is NATO forcing people to wear or not wear hajibs or burkas? No they aren't. They make the choice themselves.

Both of you ignore those very valid points to go on to accuse me of having a 'cultural superiority complex'. No that'd be you because apparently you figure you know what afghans want more than the afghans do. How arrogant of you.

The counter arguments so far have been:
- "Oh well 300 years ago we were just as bad"....
- "Bras = Burkas"
- "Since we have a law against public nudity that makes us just as bad as the Taliban. We're forcing people to wear clothes". (lol. no. we're not actually)
- "We rip the burkas off of children here in Canada". (No we don't.)

Absolutely none of those responses (not to mention all the insulting that goes with them) come close to showing how NATO is forcing Western culture on Afghans. None of them. None of them directly answers my points -- both of you are too afraid to do so. If you think they do prove that NATO is forcing western culture on Afghans then there's no more to be said.

If you want an honest debate you have to be willing to debate honestly. So far I haven't sen it.

$1:

No I do enjoy having my assumptions challenged. Immensely, in fact.

No. You don't. Otherwise you would directly answer my points instead of dancing around them. You had the challenge and you ran away first chance you got.

[BartSimpson]

Brenda Brenda:

Lots of the Nazi's HAD to do the same...

And, per the Nuremburg Tribunals, that was not an excuse. Those who commit the crimes the Taliban advocates should face justice, period.

"He told me to do it!" is not an excuse on a playground and it is not an excuse on a battleground.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

What do you not understand about "it is prohibited to wear a burka, hajib or any facecovering in public places and in schools"?

The part where it either applies to us or anything NATO is doing in Afghanistan in terms of forcing our culture on them.

Like I say, they wear burkas at my daughters school (don't know what your';e talking about with puberty) and this is 'redneck' Alberta, remember? They wear them at the bank. They wear them at the grocery store. They were them everywhere I look. It aint prohibited here so I think either you're missing something or you're not being honest about where that rule comes from.

In either case it has no bearing on what's going on in Afghanistan and their choices.

$1:

Not every Afghani is Taliban"

It's a complete mystery to me why you keep telling me this. I know Brenda. What does it have to do with anything?

[Zipperfish]

putz putz:

Can you even tell me what the original mission was without Wiki? Somehow I doubt it.

Yes it was to knock off the Taliban and get Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Bringing a western way of life to Afghanistan wasn't on the menu.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Bringing a western way of life to Afghanistan wasn't on the menu.

There he goes again ignoring all obvious counters to his view.

- Is NATO forcing people to vote? No. They aren't. They do that of their own free will
- Is NATO forcing people to go to school? No. They aren't. They do that of their own free will
- Is NATO forcing people to wear or not wear hajibs or burkas? No they aren't. They make the choice themselves.

Still waiting for you to show us where we're forcing western values on them. I guess you figure you can just say it over and over again and that'll make it true.

[Zipperfish]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

No I just don't enjoy or see the point in debating with someone insincere.

But I'm not being insincere, or flippant.

We imposed a democracy on Afghanistan. Did we force them to vote? No. Many did vote. But that democracy is, at this moment, on very thin ice. Now gargantuan efforts are being expended on keeping the democracy alive. Perhaps the analogy is that of protecting a young sapling that it might grow into an oak, I don't know. We are also spending a lot of effort on the "hearts and minds" campaign--schools and such.

The expectation is that they will see that we are the good guys and reject the tyranny of the Taliban. But is that necessarily the moral mindset from which Afghan people operate? Many people here kept saying that teh Taliban "are not anything like us." A lot of people said that. And, contrary to popular opinion, the Taliban, and Taliban sympathizers are part of the fabric of Afghanistan culture. They come from it; they did not come from outside it. You cannot separate the two as easily as many here would like to think.

So, on the one hand, we say they are nothing like us and on the other we exepct them to react the way we would react to the conditions we are creating for them. And they are not reacting as we would expect. And I'm saying that we need to forget the moral mission and focus on military objectives.

$1:

-"Since we have a law against public nudity that makes us just as bad as the Taliban.

Again, a serious misinterpretation. The motivation that makes women wear tops in Canada is teh same as the motivation that makes women wear burqas in Afghanistan. I'm not saying their same, I'm saying they have the same origin.

http://www.peacewomen.org/news/Afghanistan/May05/burqa.html

$1:

The oppressive Taleban regime is long gone, but many Afghan women are still afraid to abandon their burqas. "I feel naked without my burqa," said Kabul woman Roqia, dragging large shopping bags and gasping in the heat. "I cannot take it off. I would feel that everyone was looking at me."

...

"A woman on the street without a burqa is seen as fair game for any sort of male overtures. Men are always making remarks and cursing women, and this certainly has a negative effect."

Would western women feel naked without their tops on? I'd wager "Yes." Would men see a topless woman as an invitation to lewd comments--I've seen it happen.

$1:

No. You don't. Otherwise you would directly answer my points instead of dancing around them. You had the challenge and you ran away first chance you got.

Perhaps you think I'm dancing around them. I think I'm dancing with them.

[Brenda]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

The part where it either applies to us or anything NATO is doing in Afghanistan in terms of forcing our culture on them.

Like I say, they wear burkas at my daughters school (don't know what your';e talking about with puberty) and this is 'redneck' Alberta, remember? They wear them at the bank. They wear them at the grocery store. They were them everywhere I look. It aint prohibited here so I think either you're missing something or you're not being honest about where that rule comes from.

In either case it has no bearing on what's going on in Afghanistan and their choices.

NATO is not a culture.
You live in Belgium? You keep talking about NATO, but you refuse to acknowledge even NATO countries have different laws and rules...

You should read the Koran. You don't know about when they start wearing hajibs, that is not my problem.Muslim women told me that is the way Allah wnats it.

The reason we are in Afghanistan is because we do not want the Taliban to take over the Western world and Culture. What are we doing there? Telling them that ONLY our way is the right way. That does not make us any better than them. And herby I am finished with this topic.

[Akhenaten]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

No I just don't enjoy or see the point in debating with someone insincere.

But I'm not being insincere, or flippant.

We imposed a democracy on Afghanistan. Did we force them to vote? No. Many did vote. But that democracy is, at this moment, on very thin ice. Now gargantuan efforts are being expended on keeping the democracy alive. Perhaps the analogy is that of protecting a young sapling that it might grow into an oak, I don't know. We are also spending a lot of effort on the "hearts and minds" campaign--schools and such.

The expectation is that they will see that we are the good guys and reject the tyranny of the Taliban. But is that necessarily the moral mindset from which Afghan people operate? Many people here kept saying that teh Taliban "are not anything like us." A lot of people said that. And, contrary to popular opinion, the Taliban, and Taliban sympathizers are part of the fabric of Afghanistan culture. They come from it; they did not come from outside it. You cannot separate the two as easily as many here would like to think.

So, on the one hand, we say they are nothing like us and on the other we exepct them to react the way we would react to the conditions we are creating for them. And they are not reacting as we would expect. And I'm saying that we need to forget the moral mission and focus on military objectives.

$1:

-"Since we have a law against public nudity that makes us just as bad as the Taliban.

Again, a serious misinterpretation. The motivation that makes women wear tops in Canada is teh same as the motivation that makes women wear burqas in Afghanistan. I'm not saying their same, I'm saying they have the same origin.

http://www.peacewomen.org/news/Afghanistan/May05/burqa.html

$1:

The oppressive Taleban regime is long gone, but many Afghan women are still afraid to abandon their burqas. "I feel naked without my burqa," said Kabul woman Roqia, dragging large shopping bags and gasping in the heat. "I cannot take it off. I would feel that everyone was looking at me."

...

"A woman on the street without a burqa is seen as fair game for any sort of male overtures. Men are always making remarks and cursing women, and this certainly has a negative effect."

Would western women feel naked without their tops on? I'd wager "Yes." Would men see a topless woman as an invitation to lewd comments--I've seen it happen.

$1:

No. You don't. Otherwise you would directly answer my points instead of dancing around them. You had the challenge and you ran away first chance you got.

Perhaps you think I'm dancing around them. I think I'm dancing with them.

I'm not reading a word of that until you answer these points directly:

- Is NATO forcing people to vote? No. They aren't. They do that of their own free will
- Is NATO forcing people to go to school? No. They aren't. They do that of their own free will
- Is NATO forcing people to wear or not wear hajibs or burkas? No they aren't. They make the choice themselves.


I apologize for laughing at you in the beginning, and I apologize if I've offended you but I'm not continuing with this as I feel no compelling need to prove you wrong. I'm confident enough that you are wrong. I'm sorry if that sounds arrogant but that's the way it is. If you answer these points directly, and reconcile them with how we're 'forcing our culture on them' then maybe we can continue, but we may just have to agree to disagree. I'm apologize for ignoring your post as I'm sure you don't like your time wasted but neither do I, and until my points are addressed in a straightforward manner I see no point in continuing.