[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

Change the subject? Did you not say this?

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Based on that, any legalization or regulation of any drug will likely face the same consequences when the government gets addicted to the cash

Focus on cigarettes if you want. We have the mechanism called taxation to destroy the black market. It's only a matter of time before you accept this reality or give up on the topic. Regulation and taxation can solve that problem. Prohibition cannot.

Curt, you tried to change the channel and move onto booze because the situation with cigarettes isn't a good one and doesn't aid your agenda. No need to bullshit.

We have the mechanism called taxation to destroy the black market? Sure, but the government ISN'T INTERESTED IN DESTROYING THE BLACK MARKET. That's what you have to realise. It sounds all warm and cuddly to say, but in reality, it's not happening.

They are interested in taxing the shit out of anything like cigarettes and booze to raise government coffers. Period.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curtman Curtman:

Change the subject? Did you not say this?

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Based on that, any legalization or regulation of any drug will likely face the same consequences when the government gets addicted to the cash

Focus on cigarettes if you want. We have the mechanism called taxation to destroy the black market. It's only a matter of time before you accept this reality or give up on the topic. Regulation and taxation can solve that problem. Prohibition cannot.

Curt, you tried to change the channel and move onto booze because the situation with cigarettes isn't a good one and doesn't aid your agenda. No need to bullshit.

We have the mechanism called taxation to destroy the black market? Sure, but the government ISN'T INTERESTED IN DESTROYING THE BLACK MARKET. That's what you have to realise. It sounds all warm and cuddly to say, but in reality, it's not happening.

They are interested in taxing the shit out of anything like cigarettes and booze to raise government coffers. Period.

So why isn't contraband alcohol such a major problem then? Yes, I understand there's a black market for alcohol but as Curt asked, why aren't the govt controlled liquor stores bleeding money from lack of sales? There are certainly more imbibers in Canada than there are cigarette smokers these days.
As to your claim that 90% of Ontario's illegal cigs come from south of the border, I have doubts about that. Ontario and Quebec alone have over 50 cigarette factories between them on Native reserves, INCLUDING Akwasasne. That's far more than the "legitimate" tobacco companies have in all of Canada.

What you've failed to realize is the tobacco coming across the border to the reserves isn't necessarily all illegal. The reservations are permitted to produce cigarettes on reserve for sale to status Indians.

The other thing you fail to realize is the quality. Native smokes suck ass. Hell, smoking those pieces of shit is what got me to quit smoking in the first place. IF that's the same attention to quality they'll give to pot production, I have doubts they'll have many customers from outside the reserves. Cigarette smokers might not mind smoking shitty products to save money but most pot smokers won't.

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curt, you tried to change the channel and move onto booze because the situation with cigarettes isn't a good one and doesn't aid your agenda. No need to bullshit.

I did? Did you notice this topic is not about cigarettes?

This topic is about the majority of people believing that prohibition is a failure, and they have come to realize that regulation and taxation is a better way to deal with drugs.

You made a statement that must seem absurd to even yourself, and now you're back-peddling.

Canada's Liberal government was successful at significantly diminishing the tobacco black market. The Conservatives don't understand regulation, that's why they don't know how to deal with the problems associated with black market drugs.

It does suit my agenda just fine. It's a great example of how regulation succeeds where prohibition fails.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Curtman Curtman:

Canada's Liberal government was successful at significantly diminishing the tobacco black market. The Conservatives don't understand regulation, that's why they don't know how to deal with the problems associated with black market drugs.

What a load of horseshit.

$1:

As long ago as 1998, the grand chief of Akwesasne warned in a letter to Jean Chretien, then prime minister, that recently increased tobacco taxes would lead to a new spate of cigarette smuggling, likely augmented by the running of drugs, guns and other contraband. Mike Mitchell said his people did not want to see tobacco take hold, but lamented in the letter that the band had received no federal help in its push to foster other, healthier businesses and trade.

Yeah, that's some success there

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curt, you tried to change the channel and move onto booze because the situation with cigarettes isn't a good one and doesn't aid your agenda. No need to bullshit.

I did? Did you notice this topic is not about cigarettes?

This topic is about the majority of people believing that prohibition is a failure, and they have come to realize that regulation and taxation is a better way to deal with drugs.

You made a statement that must seem absurd to even yourself, and now you're back-peddling.

Canada's Liberal government was successful at significantly diminishing the tobacco black market. The Conservatives don't understand regulation, that's why they don't know how to deal with the problems associated with black market drugs.

It does suit my agenda just fine. It's a great example of how regulation succeeds where prohibition fails.

Did you notice the conversation went on about cigarettes for multiple posts, some of which you were involved in, until it turned a little to negative for your agenda so you jumped ship? It's typical of you, not very surprising.

You must be imagining back-peddling because my stance has remained the same. Governments are able to control the black market to an extent but they're not interested in doing so.

As for your genius Liberal action on taxation, you're just helping to prove my point about how all governments use cigarettes as cash cows. They don't care about the effects of the black market.

The Chretien Liberals reduced the excise tax for for a short while, then doubled them by the time they left office in 2005-2006.

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

Canada's Liberal government was successful at significantly diminishing the tobacco black market. The Conservatives don't understand regulation, that's why they don't know how to deal with the problems associated with black market drugs.

As mentioned above, that's utterly false.

The Liberals lowered excise taxes for a couple years with the low being $7.29 in 1994 to $16/carton in the early 2000's.

Contraband seizures were higher in 2005-2006 than they were in 1994.

[Lemmy]

The provincial tax ($25/carton + 8%) is greater than the federal tax ($17/carton = 5%), so this more of provincial government-created black market than a federal one.

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Did you notice the conversation went on about cigarettes for multiple posts, some of which you were involved in, until it turned a little to negative for your agenda so you jumped ship? It's typical of you, not very surprising.

I'm fine with the topic, it's you who wants to pick and choose. Prohibition has never had any positive effect on public safety. Regulation and taxation of cigarettes has been proven effective at reducing usage, and at fighting smuggling.

You first claimed that all drugs were impossible to control with tax & regulate, now you're saying we're not allowed to talk about booze, only cigarettes, in a topic about ending marijuana prohibition.

Hilarious.

[Zipperfish]

Or sugar. Since Halloweeen is coming up, maybe we should start recognizing that as the real gateway drug.

[Thanos]

Pound back an energy drink on an empty stomach and enjoy bouncing off the walls, at least until the rush crashes you in flames. It's a real hoot and a great nap event afterwards too.

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

You first claimed that all drugs were impossible to control with tax & regulate, now you're saying we're not allowed to talk about booze, only cigarettes, in a topic about ending marijuana prohibition.

Hilarious.

More fiction from Curtman.

I'd love you to quote me on that.

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curtman Curtman:

You first claimed that all drugs were impossible to control with tax & regulate, now you're saying we're not allowed to talk about booze, only cigarettes, in a topic about ending marijuana prohibition.

Hilarious.

More fiction from Curtman.

I'd love you to quote me on that.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Based on that, any legalization or regulation of any drug will likely face the same consequences when the government gets addicted to the cash

This is why I say it's a waste of time engaging you on any conversation. You take it around and around in circles, and it never goes anywhere. This is the same conversation we have over and over again. Nothing new.

Lets fast-forward to the part where you acknowledge that cigarette smuggling does not cause the same level of violence that black market unregulated drugs do under prohibition.

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Unsound Unsound:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

That's a pipe dream. Legalizing cigarettes & booze hasn't stopped the black market at all. Where there's money to be made, items will be sold on the black market.

Anyone else remember the big DuMurier shoot-out of 2010?

Out of sight, out of mind. If it doesn't disrupt your city with gunfire, it can't be too bad of a problem.

[andyt]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

andyt andyt:

So let me get this straight - according to OTI, if we legalize pot, we'll be flooded with pot that we export without tax to the US and that pot will then be re-imported into Canada by criminal gangs, because the legal pot situation will be the same as the legal tobacco situation. Have I got this right?

No, you have to understand the illegal cigarette business before you can understand my point.

The majority of illegal cigarettes don't come from within Canada. 90% of illegal smokes in Ontario are manufactured in the US and smuggled into Canada via reserves. Specifically, the Akwasasne reserve.

Ah. So if we legalize pot in Canada, we'll be flooded with illegal pot produced in NY state. Have I got it now?

[Curtman]

$1:

Ethan Nadelmann: We Hit A Drug Policy Tipping Point

Ethan Nadelmann, the Executive Director of the Drug Policy Alliance addressed 1000+ drug policy reformers from all over the world at the opening session of the International Drug Policy Reform Conference in Denver, Colorado.

Mr. Nadelmann pointed out that the world hit a drug policy tipping point, referring to major marijauana law reforms in the US and in Latin-America. He praised the Obama-administration for taking the lead in reforming the criminal justice system.

Mr. Nadelmann emphasized that America is truly exceptional. "Nobody in the history of democratic society has locked up fellow citizens in the way we do. Nobody has locked up black people the way we do. Nobody did these sorts of things. I am fighting so that America becomes average."

[Curtman]

Get Marc Emery home from U.S. prison, say 3 MPs

$1:

Three members of Parliament are backing B.C. marijuana advocate Marc Emery's bid to return to Canada from a U.S. prison.

Nicknamed the Prince of Pot, Emery was extradited to the U.S. and sentenced to five years in 2010 for conspiracy to manufacture marijuana after his Vancouver-based seed mail order business was busted in a joint operation involving U.S. and Canadian law enforcement agencies in 2005.

NDP Deputy Leader Libby Davies, Liberal public safety critic Wayne Easter and Green Party Leader Elizabeth May have joined Emery's wife, Jodie, on Parliament Hill to call on the Conservative government to approve Emery's request to serve the remainder of his sentence in Canada.

In June, the U.S. government approved Emery's transfer back to Canada, but the Canadian government has yet to approve the move.

According to his wife, Emery is eligible for early release from U.S. prison in 251 days.