[Public_Domain]

[ShepherdsDog]

Don't think Ziggy was banned....he let in a snit.....a few times

[Public_Domain]

[Brenda]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Don't think Ziggy was banned....he let in a snit.....a few times

Ziggy was banned alright.

[bootlegga]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Brenda Brenda:

Don't forget that most Muslims look at radical Muslims the same way most Christians look at the Westboro Baptist morons. (just wanted to put that out there. It has not much to do with your post...)

I don't think so, Brenda. This is just my intuition, but I think most Muslims (or at least a significant percentage) SAY they denounce violence against the infidels but are mostly being politically correct and polite. I think it's lip-service. I think moderate Muslims regard radicals like juvenile delinquents ("Oh that Danny, getting in trouble again, boys will be boys"). The more I read and observe, the more I'm growing to think that moderate Muslims either passively accept terrorism, at best, or quietly support it at worst. I wish I didn't have that feeling, but I do.

Sad to say it, but I'm moving more and more towards that camp too, although I don't necessarily think they are accepting of it, but rather terrorized by it just as westerners are.

Those who speak out against the more radical are typically targeted and/or marginalized by their own religion and its adherents. As such, those who might be willing to say something are too scared to do so after seeing how others have been made example of. Just look at Salman Rushdie as a high profile case - what happens when you're a nobody and you're the target of radicals and cannot afford round-the-clock security?

It can be very easy for people to moralize and say things like "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing," but people have to live in the real world and I understand not wanting to constantly live in fear of being attacked/killed.

[BartSimpson]

Public_Domain Public_Domain:

This forum is pretty much a loonybin, methinks.

You and I being firm evidence of that fact, yes.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

but people have to live in the real world and I understand not wanting to constantly live in fear of being attacked/killed.

maybe in the third world outhouses, but not in the west. where would black civil rights be in the US if they had that take, during the 50s 60s and 70s? or northern ireland for that matter if no one spoke out against the ira

[bootlegga]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

but people have to live in the real world and I understand not wanting to constantly live in fear of being attacked/killed.

maybe in the third world outhouses, but not in the west. where would black civil rights be in the US if they had that take, during the 50s 60s and 70s? or northern ireland for that matter if no one spoke out against the ira

I don't see the civil rights movement or speaking out against the IRA as fair comparisons - doing either didn't automatically put you a hit list.

Sure, civil rights workers got beat up once and a while (a few were even murdered), but by and large, the response of southerners was much more mild than radical Islamists are today. Same goes for the IRA - speaking out against them wasn't an automatic death sentence.

The reason being that both the IRA and American southerners, while holding views large segments of society didn't like, were born and raised in the West, and therefore shared at least some similar opinions on things like free speech.

Radical Islamists (even those raised here) don't share similar opinions to the rest of us. All you have to do is look at Theo van Gogh as a case study;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3974179.stm

[Brenda]

The BBC article makes it look like Fortuyn was also killed by a Muslim. He was not. He was killed by a white radical lefty Vegan.

[andyt]

In Canada, at least, you can't say that moderate Muslims live in fear of speaking out. And in fact, many do, but it certainly is under reported in the media. I can't help but feel tho that many moderate Muslims do make excuses for the terrorists.

But then, so do many moderate Palestinians for Hamas/Hezbollah, and so do many Jews for Israeli actions. Just that those actions aren't over here.

[ShepherdsDog]

bootlegga bootlegga:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

$1:

but people have to live in the real world and I understand not wanting to constantly live in fear of being attacked/killed.

maybe in the third world outhouses, but not in the west. where would black civil rights be in the US if they had that take, during the 50s 60s and 70s? or northern ireland for that matter if no one spoke out against the ira

I don't see the civil rights movement or speaking out against the IRA as fair comparisons - doing either didn't automatically put you a hit list.

Sure, civil rights workers got beat up once and a while (a few were even murdered), but by and large, the response of southerners was much more mild than radical Islamists are today. Same goes for the IRA - speaking out against them wasn't an automatic death sentence.

The reason being that both the IRA and American southerners, while holding views large segments of society didn't like, were born and raised in the West, and therefore shared at least some similar opinions on things like free speech.

Radical Islamists (even those raised here) don't share similar opinions to the rest of us. All you have to do is look at Theo van Gogh as a case study;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3974179.stm

Ask the Irish living in Catholic neighbourhoods what happened if you were too vocal in your opposition towards the IRA. Also, it's been pointed out that many of the radical Islamists popping up in the West were born, raised and schooled in the West.

I wasn't talking about white or northern civil rights workers, I'm speaking about the the victims of the klan who were beaten be and lynched because they were 'uppitty niggers' who didn't know their place. They were doubly damned by being black and poor, so they didn't attract much attention. Still they stood up to their tormentors and oppressors, violent folk but small in number. They confronted their bullies and won.....the imam turning the in is a good example and a good start.

[BartSimpson]

andyt andyt:

In Canada, at least, you can't say that moderate Muslims live in fear of speaking out. And in fact, many do, but it certainly is under reported in the media. I can't help but feel tho that many moderate Muslims do make excuses for the terrorists.

But then, so do many moderate Palestinians for Hamas/Hezbollah, and so do many Jews for Israeli actions. Just that those actions aren't over here.

And you're not over there. Israel used to be so bad that the homicide bombings would be reported almost as blithely as the weather meaning that you got the sense from the reporters that it was unstoppable and uncontrollable.

A movie I saw recently that touches on this is called "Walk on Water" from 2005.

Well worth seeing for a myriad of reasons not the least of which is that it is an excellent movie.

[andyt]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

.the imam turning the in is a good example and a good start

It sure is. More of this would be how I would come to see Canadian Muslims as allies rather than somebody to be weary of. I wonder what sort of grief this Imam is getting from fellow Muslims about this.

[BartSimpson]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Ask the Irish living in Catholic neighbourhoods what happened if you were too vocal in your opposition towards the IRA. Also, it'd pointed out that any of the radical Islamists popping up in the West were born, raised and schooled in the West. I wasn't talking about white or northern civil rights workers, I'm speaking about the the victims of the klan who were beaten be and lynched because they were 'uppitty niggers' who didn't know their place. They were doubly damned by being black and poor, so they didn't attract much attention. Still they stood up to their tormentors and oppressors, violent folk but small in number. They confronted their bullies and won.....the imam turning the in is a good example and a good start

I cannot recall the film, but a movie of the past 20 years or so focused on a town of armed blacks fighting against the Klan in the post-Civil War era. It's well worth seeing and also worth noting that the first gun control laws in the USA were aimed at disarming blacks to make sure that they were unable to fight back against the Klan.

[bambu]

Only immigrants who can support themselves forever should be allowed in.

Anyway, it's time all immigration to the West was stopped.