[Blue_Nose]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Canada, for instance, is little more than the collective beliefs of thirty million people. If they stop believing in it then it will cease to exist.

But they do believe in it and therefore it does exist and not just in their heads.

A country's existance extends beyond the minds of its citizens to anyone who has ever heard of it and can grasp the notion of political boundaries. However, outside the minds of humans, our borders, laws, and labels do not exist. So no, 'Canada' doesn't exist beyond peoples' heads - that should be evident from the fact that you just wrote "If they stop believing in it then it will cease to exist".

The glaring difference between that and supernatural beliefs is that nobody is claiming that political borders exist as anything but a human construct. If people viewed God and magic in the same way - as human constructs - there'd be a lot less confusion in the word.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

But, as I said before, you can't seem to get past your prejudices about the word "magic" to see anything else that's being discussed here.

Actually I'm just not allowing you to claim that something is 'magic' when it's not. I'm not interested in discussing communism and gun control in regards to magic because they're not relevant.

[BartSimpson]

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

But, as I said before, you can't seem to get past your prejudices about the word "magic" to see anything else that's being discussed here.

Actually I'm just not allowing you to claim that something is 'magic' when it's not. I'm not interested in discussing communism and gun control in regards to magic because they're not relevant.

One last time:

Saying that people are attributing magical qualities to something does not mean that I am saying they have a belief in magic nor am I denouncing their beliefs as magical.

The fellow wrote a pretty good article on how people seem to have a need to irrationally explain away their powerlessness in life and I see examples of that with supposedly rational, modern people.

Is that a belief in magic? No, it isn't.

Is it a belief that is similar to a belief in magic? For all intents and purposes, yes it is.

If someone believes x without any rational reason for it and they believe that x has some effect that cannot be demonstrated, repeated, or documented then is there any tangible difference between that belief and a belief in magic?

No, there is not.

[Blue_Nose]

So your argument has been that magic is not the only irrational belief that exists - saying they have "magical qualities", then, is only detracting from your point that they share irrational qualities with magic.

You've a hard time presenting a logical argument.

[BartSimpson]

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

So your argument has been that magic is not the only irrational belief that exists - saying they have "magical qualities", then, is only detracting from your point that they share irrational qualities with magic.

You've a hard time presenting a logical argument.

It's not a logical subject.

[Blue_Nose]

Commenting on the characteristics of magic can certainly be logical - at least when people with some sense are involved.

Try this: moose and cane toads are both vertebrates. A person with sense would realize that calling them vertabrates describes their similarity. Someone without any sense (hint) would instead describe a moose as having "cane toad qualities". In no way is that a useful description.

In your case, saying that a belief in communism has "magical qualities" makes as much sense as saying belief in magic has "communist qualities". Neither makes any sense, period.

[Aurora_Janus]

-

[Aurora_Janus]

-

[Blue_Nose]

Aurora_Janus Aurora_Janus:

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

Aurora_Janus Aurora_Janus:

You can't just make something up and then believe it into existence. Not unless you're five years old or institutionalized.

You can make something up and believe it, but that doesn't make it exist outside your head.

I believe that is what I said. If I'm incorrect, please advise.

Sorry - I'd thought you were arguing that magic and the supernatural must exist, since you can't imagine something that doesn't exist already... that argument has been used before.

[romanP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

You can make something up and believe it, but that doesn't make it exist outside your head.

To believe in something, and not to live it, is dishonest.

If you live as you believe then you can make it so.

I think you're confusing belief with ideation, or dreaming. Holding onto certitude that anything is true won't make it so. Having an idea and thinking about how to make it real, and putting those thoughts into action (this is karma) will eventually make the dream real (this is magic).

[Brenda]

romanP romanP:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

You can make something up and believe it, but that doesn't make it exist outside your head.

To believe in something, and not to live it, is dishonest.

If you live as you believe then you can make it so.

I think you're confusing belief with ideation, or dreaming. Holding onto certitude that anything is true won't make it so. Having an idea and thinking about how to make it real, and putting those thoughts into action (this is karma) will eventually make the dream real (this is magic).

Working hard to make your dreams come true, and actually do that is magic?

That is just hard work for a cause, nothing magical about it...

[romanP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

$1:

To believe in something, and not to live it, is dishonest.

$1:

Has nothing to do with magic.

Then why was it a response to my post on reality versus magic, in the thread about magic? Is this another "parallel" in disguise?

You said:

$1:

You can make something up and believe it, but that doesn't make it exist outside your head.

Which does not specifically mention magic.

I responded with the quote from Mahatma Gandhi:

$1:

To believe in something, and not to live it, is dishonest.

And observed that if you live what you believe then you can make it real.

Canada, for instance, is little more than the collective beliefs of thirty million people. If they stop believing in it then it will cease to exist.

I think that maybe both you and Gandhi mean something different from the words you're using, or Gandhi may not have said that in English, and it may have been badly translated. "Dream" would be a better word to use than "belief" in this instance.

If we define belief as holding certitude over any idea, then nothing can change by believing in it. I think it would be better to say that Canada is the realisation of the collective dream of thirty million people.

It is entirely illogical to say that to cease to believe in something, it would also cease to exist. There are a lot of things that people believe in that are not real, tangible, or even intelligable to anyone else because we can't observe them. The universe will probably not cease to exist if people stop believing in it. The real question is whether things exist because we observe them, or if they were already there to begin with. We can observe that Canada is one of the best countries in the world to live in. If we stop observing our status in the world, and stop acting with the resources that gave us this position, we would probably fall from that position.

If we were foolish enough to simply think that all it takes for our country to maintain its status in the world is for us to believe, then we would quickly find out that's not true.

"In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backward." -Robert Anton Wilson

$1:

But they do believe in it and therefore it does exist and not just in their heads.

I think the existence confirms the belief and not the other way around.

[romanP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

So your argument has been that magic is not the only irrational belief that exists - saying they have "magical qualities", then, is only detracting from your point that they share irrational qualities with magic.

You've a hard time presenting a logical argument.

It's not a logical subject.

Magic is very logical, if you define it properly.

[romanP]

Aurora_Janus Aurora_Janus:

romanP romanP:

We create things from our dreams all the time.

Right. But that's not believing something into existence. That's making something happen.

Alexander Graham Bell didn't believe the phone into happening, he picked up a screwdriver.

That is my point exactly. Magic is the end result of karma, if we define karma as the action required for cause and effect, and magic as the realisation of our dreams. How else do you explain how an idea from your head turned into something you can touch?

[Brenda]

romanP romanP:

Aurora_Janus Aurora_Janus:

romanP romanP:

We create things from our dreams all the time.

Right. But that's not believing something into existence. That's making something happen.

Alexander Graham Bell didn't believe the phone into happening, he picked up a screwdriver.

That is my point exactly. Magic is the end result of karma, if we define karma as the action required for cause and effect, and magic as the realisation of our dreams. How else do you explain how an idea from your head turned into something you can touch?

Ehmmm, work?

[romanP]

Brenda Brenda:

romanP romanP:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

You can make something up and believe it, but that doesn't make it exist outside your head.

To believe in something, and not to live it, is dishonest.

If you live as you believe then you can make it so.

I think you're confusing belief with ideation, or dreaming. Holding onto certitude that anything is true won't make it so. Having an idea and thinking about how to make it real, and putting those thoughts into action (this is karma) will eventually make the dream real (this is magic).

Working hard to make your dreams come true, and actually do that is magic?

That is just hard work for a cause, nothing magical about it...

I think it's pretty magical. Things like lightbulbs and computers wouldn't exist if humans hadn't thought of them and then built them.