[ShepherdsDog]

We also have to accept that there they may be things that we'll never be able to explain. Magic is just a word, nothing more.

[Blue_Nose]

It's just a word to you and me perhaps, but my point is that some people truly believe in things like magic, luck, and superstition, to the point that it dramatically affects their daily lives.

Whether it's a 'basic human need' doesn't take away from the fact that it inhibits peoples' lives more than it inspires them.

[romanP]

I think there is a certain contingent of society that understands very well how it is that we can fit 500GB onto two 3.5" metal discs when we could fit maybe .001% of that onto the same amount of space twenty years ago. I understand most of the science that goes into making this possible, and I still think it's magic.

[BartSimpson]

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

I went on a Halloween Cemetary walk last night and learned that the "Curse of the Narrows" caused two bridges two fall in our harbour, and supposedly it should happen a third time. City officials actually held a Mi’kmaq ceremony in the 50s to 'break' the curse so the new steel suspension bridge wouldn't fall down.

How this nonsense - in all its forms - has any place in our society is beyond me.

That's not superstition, that's just covering all your bases.

So did the new bridge fall down?

[BartSimpson]

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

It's just a word to you and me perhaps, but my point is that some people truly believe in things like magic, luck, and superstition, to the point that it dramatically affects their daily lives.

Whether it's a 'basic human need' doesn't take away from the fact that it inhibits peoples' lives more than it inspires them.

It is a basic need and it amazes me how many self-labelled rational people attribute magical qualities to so many inanimate objects in day-to-day life and it amazes me how many people desperately want to believe that their actions have immense impacts on the world - which expresses that desire to be powerful far beyond the reality of our power.

[Blue_Nose]

Mistakenly interpretting the real significance of a real person or thing is hardly comparable to purposely concocting fantastic explanations for them.

[romanP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

it amazes me how many people desperately want to believe that their actions have immense impacts on the world

At least this so-called belief is grounded in reality. Things you do affect the world around you.

For instance, if you drop a bomb in a populated area, people die. Just because you didn't see it happen because you were in a plane 30,000 feet above the event doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It is far more dangerous to believe that anything you do does not affect anything else.

As for the reality of our power, we've built enough nuclear weapons to sterilize every cubic inch of topsoil on the planet, should they ever be used. With this knowledge, why would you need convincing that we can't destroy our planet by other, more subtle means?

[BartSimpson]

romanP romanP:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

it amazes me how many people desperately want to believe that their actions have immense impacts on the world

At least this so-called belief is grounded in reality. Things you do affect the world around you.

For instance, if you drop a bomb in a populated area, people die. Just because you didn't see it happen because you were in a plane 30,000 feet above the event doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It is far more dangerous to believe that anything you do does not affect anything else.

As for the reality of our power, we've built enough nuclear weapons to sterilize every cubic inch of topsoil on the planet, should they ever be used. With this knowledge, why would you need convincing that we can't destroy our planet by other, more subtle means?

Here, try this:

"Guns kill people"

Amazing how many people say this and actually believe that guns, all on their own, kill people.

It must be magic.

[Blue_Nose]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Here, try this:

"Guns kill people"

Amazing how many people say this and actually believe that guns, all on their own, kill people.

It must be magic.

Actually, damages to vital organs, caused by bullets, caused by the firing of guns, kill people. That's the blatently obvious connection between gun-related death and guns that people imply when making such a statement.

That in no way whatsoever relates to supernatural beliefs. You raised the issue and now you're trying to deflect the discussion.

[BartSimpson]

Blue_Nose Blue_Nose:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Here, try this:

"Guns kill people"

Amazing how many people say this and actually believe that guns, all on their own, kill people.

It must be magic.

Actually, damages to vital organs, caused by bullets, caused by the firing of guns, kill people. That's the blatently obvious connection between gun-related death and guns that people imply when making such a statement.

That in no way whatsoever relates to supernatural beliefs. You raised the issue and now you're trying to deflect the discussion.

No, I'm not. People anthropomorphise all sorts of inanimate objects and they all too often attribute magical properties to them even though, upon reflection, they'll reject such notions. I just used guns as a handy reference.

I work in the IT biz and I see the same thing every day when people call me and tell me this, that, or the other thing did something all on its own. Granted, they're in denial about their own actions, but these folks genuinely buy into the idea that computers are capable of making their own decisions.

And we see people grasp at magic when they blame the success of others on dishonesty, trickery, and corruption instead of accepting the fact that most wealthy people come by their wealth via hard work, sacrifice, and dedication. Oddly, it's the socialists and Communists who all too often ascribe irrational powers to successful capitalists. I remember back in the 1980's the proclivity of European Communist terror groups to believe that certain bankers and capitalists had "secret banking codes" that made possible their wealth. Heck, OPP and Calgary exhibit irrational beliefs about the vast powers of the Bush Adminstration that often predate the Bush Administration.

No, it isn't all called magic, but when you look at it, it all passes the same duck test.

[Blue_Nose]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

No, I'm not. People anthropomorphise all sorts of inanimate objects and they all too often attribute magical properties to them even though, upon reflection, they'll reject such notions. I just used guns as a handy reference.

No rational person ascribes magical properties to guns, period. True, they may not understand the practical function of them or their place in society, but that simply goes back to my previous comment - mistakenly interpretting the real significance of a real person or thing is hardly comparable to purposely concocting fantastic explanations for them.

One is a lack of knowledge of something's properties, the other is the invention of supernatural properties.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

I work in the IT biz and I see the same thing every day when people call me and tell me this, that, or the other thing did something all on its own. Granted, they're in denial about their own actions, but these folks genuinely buy into the idea that computers are capable of making their own decisions.

They "buy into the idea" that their computer performs operations they didn't explicitly command it to do. You're simply taking rhetorical comments made out of frustration in a literal fashion. If you asked them if they truly believed their computer was possessed by spirits, no rational person would agree.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

And we see people grasp at magic when they blame the success of others on dishonesty, trickery, and corruption instead of accepting the fact that most wealthy people come by their wealth via hard work, sacrifice, and dedication. Oddly, it's the socialists and Communists who all too often ascribe irrational powers to successful capitalists. I remember back in the 1980's the proclivity of European Communist terror groups to believe that certain bankers and capitalists had "secret banking codes" that made possible their wealth. Heck, OPP and Calgary exhibit irrational beliefs about the vast powers of the Bush Adminstration that often predate the Bush Administration.

Blah blah blah, you're simply deflecting the discussion again. Just because I stated that supernatural beliefs are irrational - which is true - doesn't mean all irrational beliefs are supernatural in nature. Your "duck test" is irrelevant.

Notions of gun control and socialism in no way relate to supernatural beliefs - you're just pushing unrelated agendas.

[BartSimpson]

Just because something isn't called magic doesn't mean that people are not making the same kind of irrational assumptions that they would with supernatural or magical beliefs.

This fellow wrote about people needing to have these beliefs and I agree with him. I'm observing that some people replace their supernatural or magical beliefs with attributing irrational properties to modern day phenomena.

No, they don't believe a shaman with a voodoo doll can ruin their day, but they do easily adopt an unfounded belief that some secret cabal of shadow men could be able to put several tons of explosives into the World Trade Center and that these hundreds or thousands of people are able to keep such a secret for the past six years.

Perhaps the gun thing is a bad example, but do you see what I mean now?

The WTC conspiracists don't call their ideas magic, but could their irrational beliefs be quantified as a magical belief? I think so.

[TattoodGirl]

Bart...everyone is entitled to free thought, it is what brings conversation and debate to the table. It makes for diversity. I dont like when either side pushes an agenda, but I'm O.K. with listening to both sides. It makes for interesting conversations and makes me look at both sides and research things for myself. If all people thought alike and believed in the same things then the world would be a mundane place, wouldnt you agree?

Its ok to question authority and government, they arent always right, nor are they non corrupt.

[romanP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

And we see people grasp at magic when they blame the success of others on dishonesty, trickery, and corruption instead of accepting the fact that most wealthy people come by their wealth via hard work, sacrifice, and dedication.

Hard work, sacrifice and dedication are not exclusive from dishonesty, trickery and corruption. You can work very hard, sacrifice a lot and be very dedicated to trickery, dishonesty and corruption. How else to do you think despots stay in power?

$1:

Oddly, it's the socialists and Communists who all too often ascribe irrational powers to successful capitalists. I remember back in the 1980's the proclivity of European Communist terror groups to believe that certain bankers and capitalists had "secret banking codes" that made possible their wealth. Heck, OPP and Calgary exhibit irrational beliefs about the vast powers of the Bush Adminstration that often predate the Bush Administration.

Just because things predate the Bush administration doesn't mean they aren't doing it too.

[romanP]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Just because something isn't called magic doesn't mean that people are not making the same kind of irrational assumptions that they would with supernatural or magical beliefs.

No, definitely not. Believing your own lies is another good way to divorce yourself from reality. There are some very rich people who are paying other very rich people a lot of money to create lies so that they can both believe in them and live in a bubble of ignorance and stagnation.

$1:

No, they don't believe a shaman with a voodoo doll can ruin their day, but they do easily adopt an unfounded belief that some secret cabal of shadow men could be able to put several tons of explosives into the World Trade Center and that these hundreds or thousands of people are able to keep such a secret for the past six years.

Perhaps the gun thing is a bad example, but do you see what I mean now?

The WTC conspiracists don't call their ideas magic, but could their irrational beliefs be quantified as a magical belief? I think so.

This irrational belief didn't come out of nowhere, though, nor really from a lack of knowledge. More the opposite, it's born from the confusion that's been created by information overload, misinformation and the speed at which untruths can now travel and be memed. The same happens when those very rich people who want to live in a bubble need a way to protect their bubble - they prey on people who are ignorant, scared and easily confused, much like themselves.