[Tman1]

There never will be an "is" if the "supposed to be" doesn't develop into an "is".

[ShepherdsDog]

but there's the entire debate over when the 'will be' 'is'. Are they 'is' at conception or do they become so at some later point?

[MrMagicMan]

Dimcl Dimcl:

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

Ah, but she has for we all start out at conception and that person who was supposed to be never shall be.

murder - the unlawful killing of one human by another. "Supposed to be" is different than "is".

No, they are always a human from conception, but that person who could have been known and loved will never be.

Do you rest your case on semantics? It is an "interesting" value of life that you hold.

[grainfedprairieboy]

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

You know its funny how passionate people are to unborn fetuses and will fight and picket, yet there are homeless, starving children in our own backyards and no one fights for them. I don't get it. If people put that much effort into saving those lives, I would appreciate the whole abortion issue.

You must be joking! From Catholic Social Services to the Salvation Army, from the food bank to inner city hot launch programs and welfare to CMHC assistance there is an army of government hacks and both religious and non secular volunteers dedicated to the hungry and homeless. Not surprisingly, empirical evidence suggests most volunteers with the homeless and hungry are also pro life. I doubt you will stand by your "appreciate" statement but surly you see your statement was just plain and simply wrong.

[Dimcl]

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

Dimcl Dimcl:

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

Ah, but she has for we all start out at conception and that person who was supposed to be never shall be.

murder - the unlawful killing of one human by another. "Supposed to be" is different than "is".

No, they are always a human from conception, but that person who could have been known and loved will never be.

Do you rest your case on semantics? It is an "interesting" value of life that you hold.

Or, that person who could be shit-kicked around all their life because they weren't wanted in the first place, could live on to be unloved and unhappy all their days... nice legacy. As I said before, much as we might wish otherwise, life isn't fair and to each his own. Now I rest my case. And, by the way, thanks for an intriguing discussion, MrMagicMan - great food for thought.

[MrMagicMan]

Dimcl Dimcl:

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

Dimcl Dimcl:

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

Ah, but she has for we all start out at conception and that person who was supposed to be never shall be.

murder - the unlawful killing of one human by another. "Supposed to be" is different than "is".

No, they are always a human from conception, but that person who could have been known and loved will never be.

Do you rest your case on semantics? It is an "interesting" value of life that you hold.

Or, that person who could be shit-kicked around all their life because they weren't wanted in the first place, could live on to be unloved and unhappy all their days... nice legacy. As I said before, much as we might wish otherwise, life isn't fair and to each his own. Now I rest my case. And, by the way, thanks for an intriguing discussion, MrMagicMan - great food for thought.

Ah, the Logic of Whatifia. I'm glad I have never traveled to that faulty land.

[Dimcl]

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

... that person who COULD (my emphasis) have been known and loved will never be.

You have.

[MrMagicMan]

Dimcl Dimcl:

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

... that person who COULD (my emphasis) have been known and loved will never be.

You have.

Have I? It is faulty logic to think that from conception there could be someone new to know and love?

Also, one more thing, it was not intriguing to debate with you on this issue. And as for food for thought, my mind is set.

[MrMagicMan]

Dimcl Dimcl:

Or, that person who could be shit-kicked around all their life because they weren't wanted in the first place, could live on to be unloved and unhappy all their days... nice legacy.

Anyone brought into this world can suffer the same exact fate. Are you promoting everyone be murdered?

Dimcl Dimcl:

As I said before, much as we might wish otherwise, life isn't fair and to each his own.

So you don't think there should be any laws and we should all govern ourselves. Okay, bring back the Stone Age.

[Scape]

Interesting topic.

What does a sniper feel when he shoots his target? Recoil. He feels no remorse over the taking of a life, his country sent him there to do it but a life was still taken in the process. To the sniper it is not a moral question but clearly he has killed in the name of duty. This professional distance allows him to perform his job. The family of the target would not be so forgiving.

Putting aside the reasons for why abortions are a choice and focusing solely on how it effects the lives of those immediately involved is much like the reasons why a sniper pulls the trigger. The morality of the act is all in the perspective of those involved. So, yes, you can remove the morality from it. The motivations of the people involved can entirely eclipse the morality of others, especially the unborn. A sniper does not take his targets out for dinner and know one gets to know an unborn child.

[Dimcl]

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

Dimcl Dimcl:

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

... that person who COULD (my emphasis) have been known and loved will never be.

You have.

Have I? It is faulty logic to think that from conception there could be someone new to know and love?

Also, one more thing, it was not intriguing to debate with you on this issue. And as for food for thought, my mind is set.

My apologies. I was not implying that it had given you food for thought - heaven forbid! It did for me, however, and I am open-minded enough to admit it. Ta ta.

[grainfedprairieboy]

Scape Scape:

Interesting topic.

What does a sniper feel when he shoots his target? Recoil. He feels no remorse over the taking of a life, his country sent him there to do it but a life was still taken in the process. To the sniper it is not a moral question but clearly he has killed in the name of duty. This professional distance allows him to perform his job. The family of the target would not be so forgiving.

Putting aside the reasons for why abortions are a choice and focusing solely on how it effects the lives of those immediately involved is much like the reasons why a sniper pulls the trigger. The morality of the act is all in the perspective of those involved. So, yes, you can remove the morality from it. The motivations of the people involved can entirely eclipse the morality of others, especially the unborn. A sniper does not take his targets out for dinner and know one gets to know an unborn child.

Good post Scape I don't fully agree with it but it is a well thought out parable.

[MrMagicMan]

Dimcl Dimcl:

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

Dimcl Dimcl:

MrMagicMan MrMagicMan:

... that person who COULD (my emphasis) have been known and loved will never be.

You have.

Have I? It is faulty logic to think that from conception there could be someone new to know and love?

Also, one more thing, it was not intriguing to debate with you on this issue. And as for food for thought, my mind is set.

My apologies. I was not implying that it had given you food for thought - heaven forbid! It did for me, however, and I am open-minded enough to admit it. Ta ta.

Whatever that means.

[Rookiegirl]

grainfedprairieboy grainfedprairieboy:

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

You know its funny how passionate people are to unborn fetuses and will fight and picket, yet there are homeless, starving children in our own backyards and no one fights for them. I don't get it. If people put that much effort into saving those lives, I would appreciate the whole abortion issue.

You must be joking! From Catholic Social Services to the Salvation Army, from the food bank to inner city hot launch programs and welfare to CMHC assistance there is an army of government hacks and both religious and non secular volunteers dedicated to the hungry and homeless. Not surprisingly, empirical evidence suggests most volunteers with the homeless and hungry are also pro life. I doubt you will stand by your "appreciate" statement but surly you see your statement was just plain and simply wrong.

Are you kidding me!!!!!! All those people are paid, there are few volunteers. There are under age girls hooking to survive. I work for the ministry and I know what is out there. There are kids who steal to survive. There is no reason in this world why they should be starving kids. Just because the TV ask for donations, doesn't mean that people jump on the phone to help. Out of sight out of mind. That is the way society is. If you seen the people and kids that come into the food banks and shelters, with rotten teeth and poor hygiene. How many people do you think reach into there pocket and help? Governement can only do so much. What about the kids starving to DEATH!!! anywhere in this world. Its unacceptable, doesn't matter where they live. People just leave it to Catholic Social Services to the Salvation Army, from the food bank to inner city hot launch programs and welfare to CMHC assistance there is an army of government hacks and both religious and non secular volunteers. People complain that they are wasting taxpayers money blah blah blah. People complaining that kids are running on the street washing car windows for money. They stole the squeegies. What you wrote is a BS answer and that is what people say who don't help. These kids get bounced from foster home to foster home, if they are lucky. Keep telling yourself that other people are helping so why should you. Put your sweat and tears into the unborn instead of whats right infront of your face. I'm sure the ones waiting in line for food appreciate it.

[grainfedprairieboy]

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

Are you kidding me!!!!!! All those people are paid, there are few volunteers.

Canada has one of the highest rates of volunteerism in the world and a significant portion of these people devote much time and energy to the homeless. If you in fact work for the Ministry (of homelessness?) then you would be aware that soup kitchens largely do not employ either paid staff or bought groceries. You would also be more familiar with the works of the Knights of Columbus, Kiwanis, goldarn near every Church and even the efforts of community groups who act as a conduit for the millions of Canadians who donate to various food banks every year.

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

There are under age girls hooking to survive

I was a volunteer with Exodus house in the mid 80s in Calgary which was a private home for disenfranchised prostitutes, and a volunteer with the EPS Boyle street foot patrol office which offered both condoms and counselling to prostitutes. Additionally, I spent a significant portion of my life living in Edmonton's inner city so please refrain from lecturing me on the homeless, prostitutes etc. Try me with real facts or substance rather than garish statements and get a real feel for my corporate knowledge on the subject. (That is a challenge!)

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

I work for the ministry and I know what is out there.

Uh huh. old joke, I am from the government, I am here to help.

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

There are kids who steal to survive.

A romantic notion and a lot fewer then you think. Most kids who steal do so because they are thieves.

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

There is no reason in this world why they should be starving kids.

There is a reason but I’ll agree with your sentiment

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

Just because the TV ask for donations, doesn't mean that people jump on the phone to help. Out of sight out of mind. That is the way society is. If you seen the people and kids that come into the food banks and shelters, with rotten teeth and poor hygiene. How many people do you think reach into there pocket and help?

Millions. Ask the food bank alone. You are writing of Joe and Jane Canuck way too quick

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

Governement can only do so much.

There is considerably evidence to suggest that the more government becomes involved the less likely the general public is. At the crux of this argument is that more services are offered by volunteers in the US with considerably higher rates of donation when compared to Canada with a great propensity towards government involvement.

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

What about the kids starving to DEATH!!! anywhere in this world. Its unacceptable, doesn't matter where they live.

You began your diatribe with "our own backyard" this I presumed to mean Canada. I suppose since your argument that one should support abortion because not enough of its detractors support unrelated social issues is so weak you have extended it to the entire world.

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

People just leave it to Catholic Social Services to the Salvation Army, from the food bank to inner city hot launch programs and welfare to CMHC assistance there is an army of government hacks and both religious and non secular volunteers.

Haven't the foggiest what you’re on about.....

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

People complain that they are wasting taxpayers money blah blah blah.

Spending other peoples money is what lieberals do best. Now blah blah blah is what you call a lieberal ‘promise’.

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

People complaining that kids are running on the street washing car windows for money. They stole the squeegies.

I have been to Ontario and seen them practice a form of extorition on weaker and more productive citizens of society. I am not joking, when I drive in Toronto I carry a pair of leather work gloves in case I have to beat one of these societal leeches.

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

What you wrote is a BS answer

Self righteous indignation from a lieberal government bueauracrat? Oh how shall I ever carry on?

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

and that is what people say who don't help. These kids get bounced from foster home to foster home, if they are lucky.

Which is it? Are they starving in the streets stealing and extorting money to survive or are they in government paid for foster care?

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

Keep telling yourself that other people are helping so why should you.

Never said that at all. I believe I do far more than my share.

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

Put your sweat and tears into the unborn instead of whats right infront of your face.

Why can't you multi task and do both? For many on the pro life side homelessness, poverty, charity, the elderly, euthanasia etc are intertwined into their religious belief with no one issue subservient to another but with all being fundamental to their belief in the sanctity of humanity in general.

Rookiegirl Rookiegirl:

I'm sure the ones waiting in line for food appreciate it.

I have spent considerable time overseas with the military. I can attest that Canada, with all its faults, in no way shape or form even comes close to comparison in the departments of homelessness, hygiene issues and starvation. There will always be a segment of any society whether by choice or a series of unfortunate circumstance are impoverished. Do not misconstrue this to mean I condone poverty, but like any disease, it can never be fully eradicated. Now we've spun this way beyond the original sentiment of the topic so I would suggest that you consider starting another thread and I would be happy to address your unique perspective in the proper environment.

On a final note, though it is not my habit to correct neither grammar nor spelling, as a self-identified bureaucrat you are a supposed professional, particularly in the art of wordsmith, please conduct yourself as such and familiarise your vocabulary with the nuance of there, their and they’re. Otherwise I feel my tax dollars are being seriously misappropriated.