[ShepherdsDog]

Realism would be nice.

[Lemmy]

2

[Thanos]

Godwin or not, I'll say it. You'll have as much luck getting the Saudis to take an obligation to basic decency seriously as you would have had with the Third Reich.

[PluggyRug]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Collective action. That's how the UN works fails.

Fixed,

[Lemmy]

3

[PluggyRug]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Thanos Thanos:

Godwin or not, I'll say it. You'll have as much luck getting the Saudis to take an obligation to basic decency seriously as you would have had with the Third Reich.

You're expecting an instant solution to an age-old problem. It wasn't so long ago that Canada's position on women's rights was similarly unenlightened. International diplomacy proceeds at geological speed. But if you don't include the Saudis in this debate, you're absolutely right, things won't change. Are you suggesting an admission of defeat? There's a whole lot of little girls in the middle east and elsewhere who sure as hell hope we don't take a defeatist attitude and stop having these conversations.

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

Lemmy Lemmy:

Collective action. That's how the UN works fails.

Fixed,

Solid contribution. Tells me you don't know what you're talking about.

Defending the indefensible is just a waste of resources.

[Thanos]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Thanos Thanos:

Godwin or not, I'll say it. You'll have as much luck getting the Saudis to take an obligation to basic decency seriously as you would have had with the Third Reich.

You're expecting an instant solution to an age-old problem. It wasn't so long ago that Canada's position on women's rights was similarly unenlightened. International diplomacy proceeds at geological speed. But if you don't include the Saudis in this debate, you're absolutely right, things won't change. Are you suggesting an admission of defeat? There's a whole lot of little girls in the middle east and elsewhere who sure as hell hope we don't take a defeatist attitude and stop having these conversations.

I see no point in talking to anyone if you're never going to get through to them. I don't know what circumstance would ever propel me to approach with reason and rationality someone who lives in and supports a theocratic "justice" system where god and state says it's perfectly all right to take a woman who's been raped, label her a whore, bury her up to her shoulders in the ground, and then have a pack of "men" throw stones at her until she's dead.

You can talk all you want to the country with the religious police who once let a school full of girls burn down because it was too dangerous to their "morality" if the firefighters saw any of the victims in their underclothes or (gasp!) partially naked. As for me? I'll waste my time on something more productive and likely to happen, like being there for when the dog starts reciting Shakespeare word for word.

[Lemmy]

4

[DrCaleb]

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

Defending the indefensible is just a waste of resources.

No one is defending them. But the first step in changing them is to set a place at the adult table.

Making pariahs of them is how you get the North Koreas and Taliban.

[Thanos]

Lemmy Lemmy:

And yet, all those awful things used to happen a lot more than they do now. I wonder why.

It's a daily happening. It just doesn't get coverage the way it should.

There was a line from Ken Burns' Civil War series about life on one of the giant cotton plantations in the Deep South before the fighting broke out. One of the local Southerners basically said, in terms of the overwhelming endless cruelty and dehumanization the slaves went through at the hands of the patrician planter class and their overseers, "I'd rather be a dog than be a n****r on one of these plantations down here". From all appearances, based on the way most Muslim men from the really religious Islamic states behave, the same sentiment entire applies to practically everyone unfortunate enough to be born female with these kind of males in their lives. And as for the perpetrators and beneficiaries of such systems? Well, history basically teaches that only the application of overwhelming violence on a culture-destroying level and a total removal of their self-governance ever gets these kinds of folks to ever change their ways for good. You will never reach them any other way.

Teach away all you want. You'll have about as much luck as Shep does trying to get the little weasels who smash a dozen windows each and every night in that reserve he's employed at to learn anything. And don't think I let Christians off the hook either. The Handmaid's Tale adaptation starts this Sunday night on Bravo and I'm more than willing to say it's a fairly accurate view of how excessively religious right-wing American males want the world to be, and they can all go straight to the same hell with their Muslim counterparts for thinking that way.

[commanderkai]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

Defending the indefensible is just a waste of resources.

No one is defending them. But the first step in changing them is to set a place at the adult table.

Making pariahs of them is how you get the North Koreas and Taliban.

Nobody said embargo and sanction Saudi Arabia. But you don't give them a position that monitors the progress of Women's Rights when they themselves are utterly lacking. Trying to justify said election by saying they're going see the error of their ways is the funniest thing I've read in a while.

[PluggyRug]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

PluggyRug PluggyRug:

Defending the indefensible is just a waste of resources.

No one is defending them. But the first step in changing them is to set a place at the adult table.

Making pariahs of them is how you get the North Koreas and Taliban.

To me, any time you're dealing with an embedded theocracy, it's just a wasted endeavour,

[Lemmy]

5

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

If their desire was not to change, they wouldn't have expressed interest in being part of this! What other motivation would they have to ask for membership on the council if not for help in changing?

While idealism is nice, it must have some basis in realism to avoid sounding ridiculous.

[Lemmy]

6