[EyeBrock]

If my town was bombarded by rockets fired from Gaza daily, I'd be signing the artillery shells destined to be thrown back in response and I can understand the kids who've had to live through the rocket attacks doing the same.

I'm not saying it's right but I can understand it.

[GreenTiger]

As far as responding to the rockets being fired by the Arab nut jobs I can certainly understand it to, i just don't endorse it as the right thing to do either as I agree with Eyebrock.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Jenn1985 Jenn1985:

I'm sure they're heavily armed PublicAnimial9 and are using every means at their disposal to win their lands back.

They had NO lands to win back yet in 1947. The arms were stocked up in an attempt to prevent the Jewish State from even forming.
Arms provided by the Arabs I might add.

And once again, your example with the judge fails miserably. You pick one quote from a judge(who does NOT make the country's laws) and thus that makes the entire country of Israel the same way.
What you posted was one person's opinion, and of course seeing how you picked and chose that quote, it's hard to see the context in which it was said.
One person's opinion doth not a country's attitude make.

But let's take a look at judges and the stupid things they've said. Recently here, we actually had a judge APOLOGIZE to the person she was sentencing to a jail term cuz the big bad gov't was making her do it.
But I guess cuz ONE judge expressed that attitude, it's shared by the other 35 million people in this country?

[EyeBrock]

Middleground Middleground:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

If my town was bombarded by rockets fired from Gaza daily, I'd be signing the artillery shells destined to be thrown back in response and I can understand the kids who've had to live through the rocket attacks doing the same.

I'm not saying it's right but I can understand it.

Considering that position that you may've stole the land in the first place you would hardly be on a higher moral plateau

You? I'm not Jewish old chap, and behave, stole the land that Jews have called home for thousands of years? You are not even up to a differing view point so why post in a debate forum?

You are not debating, you are just ramming your position down our throats. Maybe if you got to know us all before you dissed us you might just get a better reception.

[commanderkai]

Jenn1985 Jenn1985:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HATE

How can you prove Israeli's hate more than the Pal's? How do you quantify hate? and to what purpose? Sure we can find examples of hate speech on either side. Here's a collection of Israeli hate quotes:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... nians.html

You're quoting a conspiracy site. Even so, most of these quotes are horribly out of context, or aren't even hate-filled.

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".

It's also interesting all I can find is white nationalist and "Zionist" sites with this quote, but let's pretend it's fully legitimate. How does this express hatred? The more aid, land, "prisoners" etc, you give to the Palestinians, they just want more and more. It's not like he said "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, we should turn them into luggage."

$1:

Are you surprised that the Spiritual Leader of the Shas Party calls for the execution of all non-Jews in the WB? You want the BBC article link?

Why not? It doesn't exactly make whoever that is the official policy creator for the Shas Party. Does the Shas Party, in their political platform, argue for the execution of all non-Jews?

$1:

That stuff doesn't get near the media attention like the Pal stuff does. But apparently you (lol internet lol) don't see their side in this. Below we will read how you focus on www site and not the actual author. We read how you shoot the messenger without reading the message.

Right, I'm shooting down hate/conspiracy sites. Woe is me. I'll start finding pro-Israel/Zionist/Jew sites, and we can have a pissing contest on who can find the most radical site on the Internet.

$1:

Anyways I am trolling here

I'm glad we agree on something.

$1:

Israeli soldiers convicted of using Palestinian children as shields:
http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=58197

This is amongst the very few convictions of an IDF soldier. They only took action here because it was published in the Goldstone Report to the U.N.

Goddamn you're dense. How many times do I have to say it? Israel PUNISHED those who used civilians as human shields. That's a huge fucking distinction between the Palestinians, which use any civilian structure or individual as human shields, and the Israelis who punish those who do the same.

$1:

Here's another execution of a 10 year old girl who walked where she shouldn't have. It's a published radio transcript of the IDF guys on site:

$1:

Witnesses described how the captain shot ... twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah's hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times.

Read the radio transcript right here
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/Im ... 4nov04.htm
No charges were laid. This is just one example of many.

And the Israelis have plenty of stories to counter. How does this prove that there's an institutional difference on how the IDF makes and carries out tactical and strategic decisions?

$1:

EI isn't the source they are the host of the source. It's kinda funny that you don't even dare take a look.

Yeah sure, they are a host to questionable sources linking to questionable sites that link to whatever anti-"Zionist" site in existence.

$1:

Do you realize there are like 340 Pal children(12-15), and 15,000 Pals in jails the vast majority without a legal charge, trial, accusation or ANYTHING being levied against them? They just sit in jail. Where do you think Bet Shin gets their spies from? How do you think Israel is so effective at kidnapping?

And you think they were just randomly kidnapped? How many failed suicide bombers and raiders do you think have attempted to cross into Israel, only to be captured? It's interesting how you think they're effective spies, they must have some valuable intelligence then, hm?

Right, this will lead nowhere. What you call kidnapped, I'll call captured. What you call innocent, I'll call unlawful combatant.

$1:

Bishop Tutu is on record saying "conditions are worse for the Palestinians that what we had in South Africa."

Good for him! This means...what? *Cough*Nothing

$1:

Firstly, The Israeli's like to conveniently point to May 15 as the start of the war (the Day Israel announced Independence and the same day Egypt invaded) but the war started way before that. Afterall Israel had to be a State before Egypt could even legally say they're attacking lmao. Horse after the cart ty.

I'm not sure your point right now. So the war started before Israel came into existence, therefore it's Israel's fault? Israel wasn't a state before May 15th, therefore there could be no WAR against Israel.

$1:

The Israeli's planned to start and aggressively pursue the 1967 Six Day war. In 1972 the chief of the IAF general Mordecai Hod was quoted as saying:

$1:

"For 16 years we planned the war, we constantly perfected the plan, we ate with it, we slept with it ..."

Ahem, your point? The United States creates plans to invade the Vatican too. Israel creates plans, backups for plans, contingency plans, emergency contingency plans, so on and so forth. The fact they were preparing for a war that was going to come. Israel wasn't going to go into a conflict without preparation, but Israel didn't form the cassus belli that Egypt so kindly provided.

$1:

The UN reported in the "war for Independence" that over 60% of the casualties were found on the Arab side of the partition. This evidence is conclusive: the Israeli's were the aggressors. But hey, what does the UN know?

No, the proof shows Israel were better fighters, not that they were the aggressors. I'm not sure how higher causalities for the Arab proves they're the "victims". Another point to make is that the Jews turned Israelis were also less numerous.

$1:

What did the CIA White Paper say about the 1967 war?
"... a premeditated land grab."

First, where is this white paper you speak of?

Second, this was an interesting read, from the CIA's website, for that matter:

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for- ... war_1.html

$1:

You should get your facts straight. Here's an article written by Prof. Norman Finkelstein about Hamas:

Except, no matter what they "Declared", they fucking carried out rocket attacks.

"Everyone seems to have forgotten that Hamas declared an end to suicide bombings and rocket fire when it decided to join the Palestinian political process, and largely stuck to it for more than a year."

"Largely" sticking to it, isn't sticking to it. If I largely stop stabbing people in the street, guess what? I'm still stabbing people in the street.

As much as you want to happily believe otherwise, Hamas violated the ceasefire by allowing rocket attacks into Israel, if not committing said rocket attacks themselves. If Hamas IS the legitimate government of Gaza, they are responsible for actions that are committed within Gaza against Israel. They're responsible for the actions of their citizenry. Their support or inaction against said rocket attacks led to the violation of the cease fire.

$1:

The vast majority of checkpoints aren't close to the border.

They're close to settlements or military facilities, etc etc etc. It's an occupation. There are going to be checkpoints.

$1:

Sheesh, they only "pulled out" because the Israeli voters were tired of protecting 9,000 hard core settlers who plunked themselves in the middle of Gaza and cost over $55,000,000/yr (?). to protect. The pullout cost $90

It cost only $90? Uhhuh. Sure it did. Israel pulled out both it's military and civil occupation of Gaza. No matter how you try to play this off, and no matter the reasons WHY, they ended the occupation, and as such have no responsibility to the internal domestic matters of Gaza. It also has no obligation to keep its borders open with Gaza nor an obligation to send aid either.

Also, after said pullout and the war that came from it, there was a government change in Israel that moved significantly right wing, because of how the pullout did not bring peace, like they've been so promised.

$1:

The Israeli's still control the air above, the water below. In fact Gazan borders have been closed for two years - they can't even import shoes for children.

It's still the world's "biggest open air prison" and "most densely populated area."

Great place to live - but with no future due to the closed in borders. An d it's not like they can get a building permit in the- West Bank.

And who, for the 15th time, borders Gaza? We all known Israel, but there's another state. Starts with an E, ends with a T, has various and famous pyramids tombs? A huge river flows through it?

Is it coming to you? It's EGYPT. Why has Egypt closed its borders to those poor Palestinians? Why don't they face the same scrutiny?

Oh, because they're Arab. Egypt has no fault in this "prison" even though they control one of its walls. Also, the "most densely populated area" is a lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... on_density

Gaza has a population of 1,551,859, and a land area of about 360 km squared.

It's less than 4500 people per km2.

$1:

It seems like they were trying to destroy the entire society. lol at destroying the water wells.

Your head, is, once again, up your ass. Hamas uses civilian infrastructure, INCLUDING wells, hospitals, mosques, etc, as weapon caches, amongst other things. Think about this seriously, if Israel wanted to destroy their entire society, they would be using carpet bombers, not precision munitions.

$1:

Trye a party platform isn't State policy. The current coalition has a platform MUCH MORE RIGHT WING than the 1999 LIKUD Charter.

Uh huh. So why haven't they reoccupied the Gaza Strip, rebuilt the settlements, and destroy Hamas once more in Gaza? Oh right, because a party platform does not mean government policy.

$1:

I started off rooting for the Israeli's and had no idea about the racism of Zionism. I then started deep research to find some of the truth.

Sure, and 9-11 was an Inside Job, and the Moon Landing was faked. That's also The Truth.

Your deep research has led you to bastions of hatred and stupidity, and you're either too naive, or too ignorant to care. You should look at the sources for your deep research, and always factor in the importance of the sources' biases.

$1:

One can only try

You've had a difficult task commanderkai since your beliefs/perceptions are largely shaped by MSM, whereas mine were changed or evolved by academic study.

Have a good day.

[/quote][/quote]

Uh huh. That's why you keep parroting the same "academic" research that's easily refuted by observing dates, or numbers. Your "academic" research is based upon your anti-Israel, anti-Zionism (Read: Jew) bias, further supported by biases that are deeply entrenched in one or the other, or both. You simply don't want to see the actions of Hamas and the Palestinians, but rather, you attempt to pin this all upon Israel.

This isn't a bedtime story. This isn't David and Goliath. This is a very complex, very deep issue, with both sides committing bad acts, and holding bad faith. However, and this is the key issue, that BOTH sides commit said bad acts. I readily admit Israel does commit bad acts, but they aren't responsible for every single action or inaction occurring in the region. You, in your "deep research", believe Israel holds all the fault, ranging from the broken cease fire, to the "open air prison", to the various wars in the region.

That's not knowledge, or debate, or research, but your inherent bias fueling your subconscious or conscious hatred.

[BartSimpson]

Jenn1985 Jenn1985:

The UN reported tat almost 60% of casualties during the 1947-49 war were found on the Arab side of the partition.

Jenn, this speaks to a cultural problem with the Arabs and Muslims, not to any unfair thing the Jews did to them.

I personally trained selected Arab military types and their universal dilemma was in marksmanship.

Any time a Muslim goes to do something they say "Insha'Allah" which means, 'If God wills it'. Consequently, any success they have they attribute to God and the problem is that (collectively) they are lethargic at best with marksmanship (with exceptions, of course).

Watch video of any Arab/Muslim army training and their firearms discipline borders on the comical. Many of their trainees actually point, close their eyes, and then fire.

See, if God wills it, the bullet will hit the target.

The Israelis, on the other hand, drill their troops relentlessly on marksmanship in order to make every round count.

Consequently, the casualty count in any war involving non-Arabs/non-Muslims vs. Arabs/Muslims are pretty lopsided.

But wars that are Arab/Muslim vs. Arab/Muslim tend to have shared (and heavy) casualty figures because their culture demands they use human wave tactics and then they also favor frontal assaults instead of more 'cowardly' tactical assaults.

It's also part of why the Muslims these days favor suicide bombers for terror attacks. Back in the 1970's they use to do machine gun attacks but the after-action reports showed the terrorists killing about 1 person for every 25 rounds fired. And the machine gun attacks resulted in Israel lifting their ban on citizens owning guns and then the terrorists found themselves up against 2.5 million well-armed and well-trained Israelis and that ended gun attacks for the Arabs.

In short, the Islamic religion makes for pretty pathetic soldiers so it's no surprise that they get slaughtered by the Jews.

[EyeBrock]

I don't think it's just Arabs or Muslims Bart.

In my dealings with many Third World military units, proficiency isn't something that they seem to relish.

I know it seems like a wide-ranging statement but it having trogged around the globe for 10 years in 60 or so countries, it’s an observation that I’ve seen repeated way too often.

Discipline is usually non-existent and the biggest bully is usually the section commander or senior officer.

Competence doesn't seem to be valued, it's all about petty politics and positional power.
Most Third World armies are more expert at terrorizing their own population than actually being able to defend their country from outside threats.

[2Cdo]

Jenn1985 Jenn1985:

I appreciate the few pm's I've received with the tone "I didn't know that" and have provided some useful educational material.

I think you're confused. The people who PM you and call you bat shit crazy are not complimenting you. Also, the idea of you referring to your one-sided, anti-Israel, propaganda as educational is beyond ridiculous. Time to up your meds a little Eva.

[commanderkai]

Jenn1985 Jenn1985:

Suicide bombers are about all that is left for the Pals to resist the 40+ year Israeli military/settler occupation. I'ts not like the U.S. is sending Abbas $3Billion/yr. for arms. lol

Sure. All that's left. Right. It's not like AK-47s and RPGs aren't in abundance in the region...

OH, wait a minute. They are! Even more so, they're readily available in the Palestinian territories. The problem is, fighting against the IDF is just too hard for the various terrorist groups, so they rely on terrorism against civilian targets.

$1:

The CIA White Paper on the 1967 war where they called it a "pre-meditated land grab" has been pulled from their site.

Awesome. So basically you don't have it. You know what I have? I have PROOF that there IS Zionist control over the world! They just took it off their website though...so I can't show you.

Oh oh, but I saw it, somewhere. So it exists! Come on.

$1:

commmanderkai the website (indeed a conspiracy site) is not the source. This speaks to your ability to discern fact from fiction.

Yes, I'm not a fan of quotes that can only be found on conspiracy, white nationalist, and anti-Semitic websites. This makes ME the one who can't tell the difference between fact and fiction. Yeah, right. Okay then.

$1:

Or at least suggests a willingness to discard any fact that doesn't fit your comfort zone. You then demonstrate a willingness to only accept mainline MSM news sources, the five biggest being Jewish controlled, hence the incredible pro-Israel bias in the broadcasting media.

And the Jews control the banks, educational institutions, various world governments, what am I missing here?

Just curious, do conspiracy sites work for sources in whatever school you're in? But fine, you caught me. I don't buy into the idea that 9-11 was an Inside Job, the Holocaust wasn't real, so on and so forth. There are legitimate sites with legitimate criticisms of Israel, conspiracy sites are the LAST spot to go, or link to, ever.

$1:

Up until 6 months ago Israel had never punished any soldier for using Pal children as shield, an even provided with facts of execution style has never offered more than a hand slap. This is fact.

And Hamas, Hezbollah, etc etc, hasn't done anything close. On top of this, Israel has punished its soldiers in the past for other violations. Does it happen all the time? Probably not. It's a war, bringing soldiers to tribunals for everything they do demoralizes them.

Here's another example:

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=12656

$1:

That you would so casually dismiss a factual IDF transcript speaks volumes of your bias. I knew it foolish to try to reason with a racist, I just didn't realize what an extremist you are. Sorry for that.

Right. You're being "reasonable". If it's real, that the transcript is actually true (which would have caused a huge shitstorm, Jew controlled MSM or not), then the soldiers within it are wrong, and should be prosecuted. But I'm not jumping on a hugely unreliable source, or a host of sources, or however you're defending these bullshit sites, by somehow giving credibility to anything they say.

$1:

This is a David and Goliath story.

No it's not. The Palestinians want to portray it as such, but it's far from that simple. The Palestinians have numbers, and plenty of resources to supply their war effort, "lack of shoes" or not, and they have general support of the masses, who see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a simple moral story without truly understanding the issues. Israel has technology, training, expertise, but they also operate in a hugely different mindset from the Palestinians, one that values their soldiers and civilians. If Israel truly wanted to collectively destroy Palestinian society, it had the capacity to do that for decades. It hasn't for the same reason why the United States didn't turn Afghanistan into glass, or NATO turning Serbia into a complete parking lot.

Of course, most of this is lost on you, much like your intense academic research steams of bullshit Palestinian propaganda, like the "most densely populated region", and is deeply entrenched in the same websites that believe the Holocaust was a myth, or that Israel needs to be destroyed, or that the Jews control everything. Israel might not be perfect, but that doesn't make you right, and it certainly doesn't make you educated, enlightened, or intelligent.

[EyeBrock]

"This is a David and Goliath story."


Too right it is. Israel surrounded by other states that have professed that they want to see Israel destroyed. An EU and UN that openly support those that preach hatred against Israel and the mystifying streak of anti-semitism that is again becoming rampant in our country, further nurtured by our universities. David and Goliath alright.

It's very worrying that we have people like 'Jenn1985' trying to justify hatred so vehemently.

The whole world is becoming like Europe in the 1920's and 1930's. The 'eternal jew' is to blame for all our ills?

This stuff all sounds very familiar.

[EyeBrock]

Jenn1985 Jenn1985:

Anyone know what EyeBrock is talking about?
--------------
I'm not going to address feeble points, hair splitting arguments, and irrational points of view. I will add this concerning who started the Six Day War:

Nine years later, Moshe Dayan, the Israeli defense minister at the time of the war, stated in an interview not published until 1997 that Israeli policy on the Syrian border between 1949 and 1967 consisted of

$1:

"snatching bits of territory and holding on to it until the enemy despairs and gives it to us."

About events on the Israeli-Syrian border he said:

$1:

After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was. I did that, and Laskov and Czera did that, and Yitzhak did that, but it seemed to me that the person who most enjoyed these games was Dado. We thought that we could change the lines of the ceasefire accords by military actions that were less than war. That is, to seize some territory and hold it until the enemy despairs and gives it to us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

I am sure the Jordanians, Lebanese, Egyptians experienced a similar dynamic. Today, the Palestinians know this "nickle and dime" approach all too well.

You obviously don't and choose to ignore the rise of anti-semitism. Or are you a part of it? It would appear so.

[BRAH]

Quoting conspiracy websites to post Anti-Israeli propaganda is scrapping the bottom of the barrel.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Hey Jenn, do you have ANY idea how easy it is to make a site like Likkud.org or Mossad.net etc etc??
Hell, maybe I'll make a PAL site with "leaked" documents and information about Hamas and how they consistently break all cease fires and truces within 48 hours or less.
Or how they were actively recruiting kids 10 and under for suicide bombing duties.
Oh yeah, it's real easy to do too. Heck, I could get a few friends and we could make several sites about PAL atrocities with "leaked" documents, phony video, the whole works.
All it takes is a little imagination and a lot of hate and voila! Instant "official" source of information.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

And ya know, I keep hearing this crap from idiots about how the "Jews" control the media and yet..they never seem to follow that up with names and companies.
And yes, of COURSE there are media companies owned and run by people of Jewish background, just like they work in every other segment of Western society.

Oh wait, NOW it makes sense, all the years of quality issues with North American cars is the fault of all the jews that might work in the auto plants. I mean after all, they DO have a history of sabotaging certain manufactured goods in ONE other country

[EyeBrock]

Did anybody ever tell you Jen? People never read long 'cut and pastes'.

Try a concise, original post. Rants rarely change anybody's opinion.