[BartSimpson]

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

Given no carriers that is probably their only military option is to attack the main land. Does this NATO article 5 have any merit?

It didn't back in 1982.

[EyeBrock]

Personally, I find it highly unlikely that the Argies will do anything more than bully a few fishing boats and fly close to the 200 mile limit to annoy the RAF.

On an earlier post, the US did quite a lot to help the UK. AIM-9L's, Wideawake Airfield and tons of good intel to start with.

[ShepherdsDog]

Wonder if the Chileans will be helpful this time around?

[saturn_656]

There seems to be lots of talk of article 5, but the UK couldn't have invoked it if they wanted to.

See Article 6 for an explanation as to why.

$1:

Article 6 (1)

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;

on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

The Falklands are well south of the Tropic of Cancer. If Argentina were to invade, I think NATO should intervene on principal, even if not required by treaty.

[GreenTiger]

saturn_656 saturn_656:

There seems to be lots of talk of article 5, but the UK couldn't have invoked it if they wanted to.

See Article 6 for an explanation as to why.

$1:

Article 6 (1)

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;

on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.

The Falklands are well south of the Tropic of Cancer. If Argentina were to invade, I think NATO should intervene on principal, even if not required by treaty.

[EyeBrock]

I don't think the UK will need NATO to join in. Any 'attack' will elicit a defence of the FI and that's it.

The RAF will end up shooting a load of Argie fighters down, any Argie surface vessels will be taken out by the RN's SSN's and the combat proven British Army, fresh from ten years of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan will be waiting to have a chat with any Argies daft enough to land on the FI.

It's a load of old bollocks and mere posturing by the Argies.

[ShepherdsDog]

I was just wondering what shape the Argentinian economy is in....seems like nationalism takes an upswing when local affairs are tanking and you need to distract people from something.

[EyeBrock]

I agree Shep. The Malvinas/FI thing is something the Argie goverment whips up when they are doing shite at home.

[Thanos]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I don't think the UK will need NATO to join in. Any 'attack' will elicit a defence of the FI and that's it.

The RAF will end up shooting a load of Argie fighters down, any Argie surface vessels will be taken out by the RN's SSN's and the combat proven British Army, fresh from ten years of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan will be waiting to have a chat with any Argies daft enough to land on the FI.

It's a load of old bollocks and mere posturing by the Argies.

Agreed. And with a good portion of the Fleet Air Arm being taken off of the mothballing list it sends a message that the Royal Navy isn't to be taken too lightly just yet.

This conversation should really address the wrong-headed manner the Cameron government is dealing with this economic austerity nonsense back home. As bad as things are in the United States right now, at least the Americans are experiencing an uptick in their GDP, as slow and painful as it is. It's much worse in Britain with a stagnant GDP that's barely showing any signs of life. And it's not coincidental that it happened at the same time that austerity measures were implemented. It's not coincidental that the Argentinians started mouthing off at about the same time that Cameron started cutting too deep and too fast into the British military.

Britain engaged in austerity before, just after World War 2. It sent their econonmy into a black hole for the next decade and essentially put the final kibosh on what was left of the Empire, even moreso than any of the attrition from fighting against the Nazis and the Japanese did. It must show how bad the British education system is in teaching history if they've forgotten what austerity did to them the last time and that they're going to try the same failed approach all over again.

[EyeBrock]

I think Cameron's days are coming to an end. The great British unwashed have always been proud of their military in a very tribal way.

The Argies flexing their muscles will put even pressure on the silly Eton gits running the country.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

Thanos Thanos:

Britain engaged in austerity before, just after World War 2. It sent their econonmy into a black hole for the next decade and essentially put the final kibosh on what was left of the Empire, even moreso than any of the attrition from fighting against the Nazis and the Japanese did.

That's not entirely true. While austerity measures didn't help, it was massive pressure from Roosevelt on Churhill as he regularily reminded Winston that WW2 was a battle of freedom for ALL people, including subjects in the British colonies.

[Thanos]

Churchill was voted out and FDR died, both before the war officially ended, so I'm not convinced that such pressure lasted much past Roosevelt's death. As Britain willingly triggered the Suez Crisis a few years later, despite Eisenhower's deep anger over the incident, I'm not sure how much influence any American President may have had over British imperial policy in the colonies and possessions.

I wonder what would have happened if post-WW2 austerity had never been implemented. Sure, the Empire would have ended in due time. But perhaps Britain could have held on longer, and been able to install much healthier and stronger local institutions for the benefit of the colonial inhabitants. This might have resulted in far less chaos and bloodshed in some of the transitions to local government, and might have even been sufficient enough to scare off the US and the Soviets from their Cold War proxy battles in or near British territories. The Third World in general might have been a much less lethal place over the last fifty years or so if the British had remained in charge of things for even another decade.

[Batsy]

Thanos Thanos:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

I don't think the UK will need NATO to join in. Any 'attack' will elicit a defence of the FI and that's it.

The RAF will end up shooting a load of Argie fighters down, any Argie surface vessels will be taken out by the RN's SSN's and the combat proven British Army, fresh from ten years of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan will be waiting to have a chat with any Argies daft enough to land on the FI.

It's a load of old bollocks and mere posturing by the Argies.

It's much worse in Britain with a stagnant GDP that's barely showing any signs of life. And it's not coincidental that it happened at the same time that austerity measures were implemented. It's not coincidental that the Argentinians started mouthing off at about the same time that Cameron started cutting too deep and too fast into the British military.

Britain engaged in austerity before, just after World War 2. It sent their econonmy into a black hole for the next decade and essentially put the final kibosh on what was left of the Empire, even moreso than any of the attrition from fighting against the Nazis and the Japanese did. It must show how bad the British education system is in teaching history if they've forgotten what austerity did to them the last time and that they're going to try the same failed approach all over again.

I think you'll find that Britain's economic problems started BEFORE the government decided on the cuts. It was Britain's economic recession that was the CAUSE of the present and necessary cuts and the recession started when the previous Labour Government were in power.

And, of course, the cuts ARE necessary to get us out of the economic mess that the last Labour government got us into. The cuts may hurt but they are absolutely necessary to get the economy up and running again.

[EyeBrock]

Maybe the UK should stop giving cash to other countries and ensure it can defend itself. Just a thought.

[Batsy]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Maybe the UK should stop giving cash to other countries and ensure it can defend itself. Just a thought.

I agree with that. We give millions of pounds to India every year, a country which can afford to have its own space industry. We even give millions of quid to wealthy China.

But I think the Falklands are adequately defended.


The British Joint Forces flag

The RAF has a presence on the islands with aircraft being based at RAF Mount Pleasant, which is capable of accepting trans-Atlantic aircraft such as the Lockheed TriStar.

According to Wikipedia:

Four Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft provide air defence for the islands and surrounding territories and have a secondary ground attack role.

The VC10 provides air transport and aerial refuelling for the fighters. When a fighter is launched it is almost immediately followed by the VC10 as changeable weather conditions might make diversion to another airfield necessary. The Hercules provides resupply missions through the use of air-drops and also carries out maritime patrol. The latter is an important mission to the Falkland Islands government as the Hercules verifies that all fishing vessels are licensed; at £1,000 per licence per season this is an extremely lucrative source of income.

The helicopters of No. 1564 Flight (formerly No. 78 Squadron) provide air transport missions. The Sea Kings carry out short and medium range search and rescue missions. The sole remaining Chinook was returned to the UK in October 2006 to be redeployed to Afghanistan.

The Royal Navy, of course, has a permanent presence at the islands, with a frigate or guided missile destroyer accompanied by an RFA vessel in the South Atlantic and a patrol ship permanently close to the islands. Also, a Royal Navy Ice Patrol Ship, HMS Endurance, is on station close to Antarctica for six months of the year (that ship is due to be replaced by a new icebreaker, HMS Protector).

According to Wikipedia:

The warship and RFA vessel carry out the Atlantic Patrol Task (South) mission which "provides a maritime presence to protect the UK's interests in the region". The Type 42 destroyer HMS Edinburgh took over the South Atlantic Patrol Task in October 2006,[12] replacing HMS Southampton. Prior to Southampton's deployment in August 2005 the role was filled by HMS Cardiff, which was decommissioned on return to the UK. As of February 2010, the on-station warship was the Type 42 destroyer HMS York. In late April 2010, HMS York was relieved by the Type 23 frigate HMS Portland. In August 2010, HMS Portland was relieved by the Type 42 destroyer HMS Gloucester. On 21 April 2011, HMS York arrived at the East Cove Military Port in the Falkland Islands, beginning patrol duties for the islands. October 2011 saw the arrival of Type 23 frigate HMS Montrose, generating a statement from UNASUR (Union of South American Nations).

The Falkland Islands Patrol ship is a River class patrol vessel, which replaced the previous Castle class patrol vessel. In 2007 HMS Clyde relieved HMS Dumbarton Castle and HMS Leeds Castle. It is planned that she will stay permanently in the South Atlantic until 2012.

The Royal Navy also has Trafalgar and Astute class nuclear submarines that it can deploy to the area, though such deployments are classified. The threat from submarines to hostile ships was demonstrated during the Falklands War when HMS Conqueror sank the Argentine cruiser ARA General Belgrano. The Royal Navy's submarines also carry BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missiles which have a range of 1,500 miles (2,400 km) and can strike at targets within an enemy country. The Sun newspaper has speculated that a Swiftsure class attack submarine, HMS Sceptre, was sent to the islands in March 2010.

A small garrison of 500 British soldiers, from the Princess of Wales' Royal Regiment, is also on the islands.

The Falklands also have their own army, known as the Falkland Islands Defence Force (FIDF), which is about 225 strong. It dates back to the Crimean War of 1854 to guard against possible Russian aggression.

The FIDF is organised as a light infantry company. It is manned entirely by the local population, following British Army doctrine, training and operations. In an agreement with the British Ministry of Defence, a Royal Marines Warrant Officer 2 is seconded to the Force as a Permanent Staff Instructor. Two permanent soldiers from the islands are employed as the Force's Commanding Officer, ranked as a Major, and as the senior non-commissioned officer, ranked as a Sergeant Major.

During the Falklands War, the FIDF fought alongside Britain's Royal Marines in defending the islands. The Argentines confiscated all of the FIDF's equipment and declared them to be an illegal organisation. For the duration of the war, some members of the FIDF were kept under house arrest at Fox Bay until the Argentine Surrender. The FIDF was reformed in 1983.

During the war, Terry Peck, a former member of the Defence Force, spied on Argentine forces in Stanley, then escaped to become a scout for the 3rd Battalion, Parachute Regiment, with which he fought at the Battle of Mount Longdon.

The Falkland Islands Defence Force today is funded entirely by the Falklands government and has an annual budget of ₤400,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkland_I ... ence_Force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_o ... nd_Islands