[BTS]

Hi, I'm new to this site. I have been following the US presidential race ever since i learned about Ron Paul. I've never seen a political figure who even remotely represented my views or the views of many people I know. The more I learned the more it clicked that this is what is right for Canada. His views are mostly libertarian ideas which I had never heard of before. I know there is a party in Canada but from what I have read its in a pretty sorry state.

[sandorski]

Some Libertarian ideas are fine. Some are downright kooky. The Gold Standard for eg. Fine in the past, but a major step backwards if it were adopted today.

[BTS]

Why do you think the gold standard is kooky? It's the only system that seems to make sense to me. Our financial state as a country and national debt is in a very bad state and growing worse over the last 30 years.

[sandorski]

Gold is a limited Resource for one. An Economy can only expand to what the amount of Gold is, unless you start manipulating the Value of Gold, then you're back with the same situation you have today. Except you have the added need to possess Gold to do it.

It also favours Nations who have Natural Supplies of Gold and creates an unnatural valuation for the simple reason of being born in the right location.

Basically the Gold Standard is just a security blanket. It seems to give you comfort, but that comfort is misplaced. The Current Monetary Market systems takes into account the whole Economy of a Nation rather than a Nations' possession of shiny stuff and as such is much more representative of the actual Economy. Current Monetary Systems also allow Economies to Grow indefinitely without any kind of Max limit.

Gold Standard supporters tend to think that it's a system based upon something tangible, but it is not. Money itself is based upon a concept, whether it's backed by Gold or Market Valuations doesn't change that.

[BTS]

Ron Paul doesn't want a only gold to be traded. He wants to legalize all currencies to be traded and the best ones will be decided by the markets. (which I believe would not end up being the US dollar and similarly in Canada the CND dollar)

Either way we need to stop printing money and devaluing our currency and stop letter the banks print our currency.

[sasquatch2]

Actually currency is a minor portition of trade....most US dollars are likely just a line printed on a piece of paper which is what lead to the 1929 crash......The current housing crunch is that same problem----dollars were calculated on the value of overpriced housing.....and underpriced, un-secured loans. Not only were individual citizens borrowing non-existant money, the banks were loaning non-existant money. Gold backed currency is a practical impossibility.....modern currencies are based more on GDP.
No need for a Libertarian forum----we just ridicule the control freaks where-ever they are encountered.

[BTS]

Wait a second sas. First you list off reasons against modern printed currency then you say gold backed currency is impossible.

More oddly, "No need for a Libertarian forum----we just ridicule the control freaks where-ever they are encountered."

control freaks? If you had any idea of what libertarianism is you would know that it represents both social and economic freedom!

Libertarians want the minimum government control possible in every aspect.

That is why I say the gold standard thing isn't that gold or anything else should be legally traded just as paper money. Not Make paper illegal or anything else.

[sasquatch2]

BTS

$1:

Libertarians want the minimum government control possible in every aspect.

Yeah I know scooter, I realized I was libertarian, before you were even contemplated let alone born.
My main complaint of LIBRANOs is their bent as control freaks.

[BTS]

Why do you have to act all elitist then. Doesn't help anything. Why not try explaining things to others so they can learn instead of being sarcastic and stuff.

What is a LIBRANO?

[kurto023]

First off. The foreclosure/housing crisis in the States isn't soley based on the fact that the United States is printing money they don't have, its because banks and private mortgage companies were approving people for loans or homes that if they got into they wouldn't be able to afford, thus why people are getting foreclosed on which has put companies such as Countrywide into a bind, which is more criminal to the people of the USA because Countrywide was bailed out of bankruptcy by the federal government but all these people lost their homes so realistically, coorporations were bailed out but people were left for dead. The United States is not just printing money, theyre using money that isn't theres from countries like China and Japan which is why they pay them millions of dollars a day to make up the debt even though like a kid at the candy store with a credit card, they keep spending it. As for Canada. For those who want to bash the conservatives, well, this Harper government is a far better government than the Liberals who have stolen constantly from the people of the this country (Sponsorship Scandal etc.)and contributed in a no for good government that can't really say that they actually got something done. The situation in the United States is no where near the situation here in Canada, and take it from someone who is Canadian but also lives temporarily in the United States. In Canada, coorporations have no where near the control over the country that they do in the States and also the United States budget just to run the country without debt is close to 150-200 billion dollars where as in Canada, its barely 20-30 billion. Every country is in debt and like the average working individual, every country will always be in debt, no government is perfect and there is no such thing as a perfect democracy. And the situation in Afghanistan shouldn't even come up to bash conservatives because oh i forgot, THE LIBERALS ARE THE ONES THAT PUT US THERE! I pay attention more to the issues going on the States because it makes me laugh everytime I turn on the news here and see Stephane Dion talk. Maybe it has more to do with the fact that parties want the power and even when a government is doing a half decent job, they'll still find reasons to bash you. Anyone who supports the Kyoto Protocol and takes pride in a plan that doesn't even work (since we're right beside the US who blows all there CO2 emissions into the same air we breath, yeah Kyoto is a joke), definately reflects my decision on whether they're good enough to run the country. Dion can barely speak our "first national" language, and Jack Layton looks like a used car salesman. As far as i'm concerned, I laugh at Canadian politics because our government isn't the problem, its the world that is in an economical rut which is why every economy is being affected, and no Liberal or NDP is going to be able to change that miraculously. Suddenly, all the issues going on in the States, makes Canadians realize that maybe their government is as corrupt as they thought it was because really, majority of Canadians who bash the conservatives have no idea.

[Rationalist]

Interesting post, I have to take issue with "every country is in debt and like the average working individual, every country will always be in debt". As an individual, I'm free of debt, by saving up money before buying something instead of the other way around. In fact, consumer debt used to be relatively unknown before the 1970s, and saving up your money for something was considered normal.

With governments, I can give them more leeway with being in debt, but it all depends on what, because debt eventually has to be paid back and, since government doesn't have the capacity to generate money except by taxation, people should be very skeptical about governments taking on debt because it is essentially promising future money from the labours of its citizens. Secondly, borrowing money to finance a social program or a war is a lot different than a business owner borrowing money to purchase a machine unit that will make more money for the business in the future. In the latter case, the investment helps generate revenue that will pay back the loan and generate more capital afterwards. In the former, the expense doesn't help pay back the debt, and is generally a drain on the economy.

With that said, I admire the Conservative government's tax cutting policies because the GST cuts helped small businesses increase their profit margins, and hopefully the tax free savings account will finally encourage citizens to save their money instead of racking up credit card debt.

However, the Conservatives disappoint me with their other pet projects like the Afghanistan war (which I realize was started by the Liberals, stop telling me that, I didn't vote for them) and the "get tough on crime" initiatives, promising to crack down on drugs, which if we look to the United States, works terribly - as well as the social conservatives that have worked their way into the party and try to further their own social agendas.

If anyone's interested in a Libertarian party in Canada, I suggest you check out the Progressive Canadian party. They are in bad shape, but I agree with them on all policy issues. They are fiscally conservative and socially liberal in the sense that people should have the freedom to do what they choose, and they bear their own responsibilities. As well they advocate more power to the provinces and municipalities, another idea I agree with. Lastly they want to pay down the government debt, which is a fine idea if you ask me. If you visit their website you'll notice they don't have many updates. Personally I think it's a party that's ripe for takeover by younger liberal-conservative minded people, and if there's any interest, maybe we can set up a group to discuss that.

[YOUR_DEAD]

Libertarian Party of Canada.

http://www.libertarian.ca/

[bootlegga]

BTS BTS:

Why do you have to act all elitist then. Doesn't help anything. Why not try explaining things to others so they can learn instead of being sarcastic and stuff.

What is a LIBRANO?

Consider thisthread as your 'welcome to CKA' from Sasquatch, who is one ofthe biggest kooks here. Just ignore him like static on the radio (like most of us) and you'll do fine.

In Samsquanch's mind Librano = Liberal...

[Xort]

The gold standard is a means to an end. The end is to control inflation by limiting the governments ability to create money. In the past with coinage they changed to amount of valuable metal in the new coins to incress their total funds.

(or mined more valuable metals)

Currently without any standard all that we have is the governments word it will not 'print' money in excess of the growth of the economy. However what little faith we have in our government is compleaty negated by the fact that we let banks loan money they do not have.

Read that again and understand it. Banks can give you money they do not have and you are expected to pay them for the priviliage of them devauling the currancy.

In the US system the Federal Reserve (which is not part of the US government's control) creates money that it loans to banks who in turn use as seed money to loan out many times more money to people and companies. This seems sort of odd that they give the banks the right to make huge profits on the interduction of new currancy.

I personaly think that the government should create a fixed amount of new currancy which it then spends on things that cost it money. Once it works it's way into the economy it may if the banks offer good enough rates people will intrust the bank with some of their savings. Which then banks could then try and loan out at an equal ratio.

That would however gut the banking industry and make a good deal of very wealthy bankers angery. It would also cause a bump in the current boom bust inflationary market system that is standard for more or less every developed nation untill the new way of generating weath settled down.

[Toro]

Sandorski is correct. The gold system is unworkable. The idea of a fixed supply, or at least a supply of money that governments cannot inflate is a very good one. However, the supply of money should not be determined by the profits of mining companies.

Having said that, I own a fair amount of gold because central bankers are debasing the currency.

I consider myself to be a quasi-libertarian, but there are too many in the Libertarian movement who believe in wacky things like Bush was behind 9/11.