[andyt]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

andyt andyt:

Alta_redneck Alta_redneck:

It's to bad that Andy is so busy trying to help with Alberta's debt, looks like Ontario could use his expertise also.

We'll send him right over once he fixes ours.

Too late. The time to fix your debt would have been while things were booming - pay more taxes, pay as you go for government spending, and put money in the heritage fund. Show a little self-restraint instead of acting like children in a candy store.

Ontario didn't have that option, they got kicked in the nuts by the high oil prices that did so well for Alberta, and the resulting high dollar. As well as a "federal" government that was totally focused on oil.

You're kidding right? Ontario as a manufacturing hub enjoyed the benefits of a low Canadian Dollar from 1976 till 2007. So complaining that Alberta was the only province to squander their riches and act childishly when it came to spending has more to do with your inherent hate of Alberta and its conservative politics than any real facts.

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/ma ... ry-dollar/



As for the Federal Gov't focusing on oil I guess you forgot the former Gov't hoping and cheering our 63 cent dollar because it supported manufacturing which was mainly located in, you guessed it. Ontario.

So you're saying all provinces were equally profligate as Alberta? There's no difference between saving income from a non-renewable resource and not putting in a fund in case your manufacturing base gets slowly eroded? So really all provinces are equally guilty here?


Funny how Thanos doesn't throw shit fits about all the equalization Ontario kicked in since 1976, since you want to go back that far.

When exactly do you think Ontario should have predicted that manufacturing would decline and start a heritage fund? When should they have planned for a high dollar?

[Thanos]

What's $250 billion in debt vs around $15 billion in debt on the profligacy scale worth? Christ, they can't even set aside the region against region hatred for a second to do some simple fuck in math.

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

And Ontario voted them in with a majority! Ontarians deserve what they get...high taxes, high debt.

Like Mike Harris was a dream - the problem with Ontario is that they wing back and forth from extreme right like Harris to extreme left like Rae and Wynne and are totally incapable of finding a middle ground somewhere.

If a party could figure that out, they'd probably be in office for life like the PCs are in Alberta.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

Too late. The time to fix your debt would have been while things were booming - pay more taxes, pay as you go for government spending, and put money in the heritage fund. Show a little self-restraint instead of acting like children in a candy store.

Ontario didn't have that option, they got kicked in the nuts by the high oil prices that did so well for Alberta, and the resulting high dollar. As well as a "federal" government that was totally focused on oil.

Yeah Alberta screwed up not saving more than a few pennies in the last 25 years, but I'd argue Ontario manufacturers unwillingness to re-invest in R&D, productivity and training was a bigger factor in Ontario's decline.

They had close to 40 years of a low, low Canadian dollar whihc protected them for foreign competition and they could have used that time to get their proverbial act together. But they thought it would go on forever (much like Albertans do with oil), so instead they creamed off the profits and kept our productivity and R&D way behind the US.

That's a big factor in why plants are moving south of the border (like the Caterpillar locomotive plant a couple years ago & the Heinz plant last year) instead of staying here. Sure, manufacturing in China took off and stole the low-skilled work and a little more of it can be blamed on multi-nationals and lower taxes in some US states, but our refusal to re-invest when we had a competitive advantage is also a big factor.

Nobody is going to keep and unprofitable plant running up here any longer.

I'd like to say that Alberta has learned its lesson, but I'm doubtful.

Albertans have pissed away a couple of booms now and May 5th will likely prove that we still haven't learned from the past and we'll remain stuck in the same model where we are still reliant on resource royalties for 20-25% of the government's revenues.

[Freakinoldguy]

andyt andyt:

So you're saying all provinces were equally profligate as Alberta? There's no difference between saving income from a non-renewable resource and not putting in a fund in case your manufacturing base gets slowly eroded? So really all provinces are equally guilty here?


Funny how Thanos doesn't throw shit fits about all the equalization Ontario kicked in since 1976, since you want to go back that far.

When exactly do you think Ontario should have predicted that manufacturing would decline and start a heritage fund? When should they have planned for a high dollar?

No, not all provinces were dealt the great hands Alberta and Ontario were and to prove that just look at the perpetual transfer payment recipient provinces. But, if Alberta was supposed to know that their petro dollars would decline and should have planned accordingly (which they did to some degree} why didn't Ontario do the same thing especially since nothing lasts forever even artificially depreciated Canadian dollars or things like huge subsidized manufacturing sectors.

As for the equalization payments I'd say Trudeau's National Energy Program was the biggest equalization payment of them all because one of the main reasons it was created was to ensure eastern manufacturing and industry could get cheap oil and maximize profits.

So, had Alberta been losing money from their oil revenue they still would have been penalized by having to sell their oil at a fixed price to the benefit of Ontario. Was that fair, maybe, maybe not but until you can show me where Ontario was so penalized for having a large, vibrant, industrial sector there's no contest about who got more out of the transfer payments and Energy Programs.

Yet, with all the benefits of a low dollar and cheap oil from 80 to 85 they still couldn't put a buck away for a rainy day.

If you ran your house like that you'd be living in a box within a year. So quit trying to say it's only Alberta that blew it because the reality is Ontario maybe even more than Alberta had all the fiscal opportunity to save but, chose to blow their money because they thought it'd never end and from what's happening now it appears that mentality is still the norm for them.

The only difference is that this time there's likely alot less money from the Oil Provinces to shore up their "profligacy" which might just come as a big shock to Chairman Wynne.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

What's killing Ontario right now are the turbine projects/wind farms. I've said it before, with the bulk of Ontario's generation being produced by hydroelectric and nuclear, and until recently, coal, the run to plant turbines was pointless and unnecessary. The shutting down of the last coal-fired plant still left Ontario with enough capacity to easily meet its needs. In fact, all Ontario needed to do to "green" it's hydro generating capacity was to shut down the coal-fired plants sans the friggin' windmills. Ironically for Ontario, we're creating more GHGs with the turbines than without. Not just from the various manufacturing processes but also from needing to be constantly cranking the fossil fuel plants(ie; gas plants) up and down because of the serious vagaries of wind generation.

This is how Ontario Liberals are operating; excess power generation is dumped, usually to Quebec. Ontario pays Hydro Quebec 2.5 cents/kwh to take that excess generation off our hands who then turns around and exports it for 5 cents/kwh.
Hydro Quebec makes 7.5 cents per kwh off of Ontario's excess generation while the Ontario ratepayer gets to help subsidize Hydro Quebec along with our own power generators.
By contrast, Ontario's standard exports of Hydro run around the 3.2 cents/kwh mark.

Meanwhile, rates in some parts of the GTA have broached 10.5 cents/kwh.

All of this because the Liberals wanted to literally install their ideology on the landscape for no real good reason other than to say they're doing something about global warming. Which as I said could have simply ended at closing the coal-fired plants. Would have saved the ratepayer billions of dollars but hey, I guess the Liberals figured some big multi-nationals needed the money more than Ontarians did.
And thank God too. I know I'll sleep better at night knowing the govt gave Samsung et al billions of our dollars so people would end up with hydro bills of $700+/mo and likely lose their homes. While those living near the turbines have seen their property values plummet.

If I didn't know any better I'd say the McWynnty crew were closet Conservatives. And I mean the nasty "fuck you" kind of Conservatives.

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Like Mike Harris was a dream - the problem with Ontario is that they wing back and forth from extreme right like Harris to extreme left like Rae and Wynne and are totally incapable of finding a middle ground somewhere.

If a party could figure that out, they'd probably be in office for life like the PCs are in Alberta.

Mike Harris wasn't 'extreme right'. Mike Harris took the same steps as Paul Martin did and Martin was far from a guy on the extreme right.

Ontario has yet to see a Premier that did so much for the fiscal health, Education and health system of Ontario. Much of what he did with respect to the education, health and welfare system remains in place today.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

bootlegga bootlegga:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

And Ontario voted them in with a majority! Ontarians deserve what they get...high taxes, high debt.

Like Mike Harris was a dream - the problem with Ontario is that they wing back and forth from extreme right like Harris to extreme left like Rae and Wynne and are totally incapable of finding a middle ground somewhere.

To Harris' credit, he did run on a campaign of major cuts. He didn't bullshit Ontarians about it. He basically said, "Short term pain for long term gain".

The problem with the cuts weren't necessarily that they went too deep. Much of the problem came from those who were affected job-wise by the cuts because they expected that since they were unionized and being paid through the public purse, they had jobs for life. When the real world kicked them in the ass like it did to everyone else, the knee-jerk reaction was to blame Harris for it. And some people still are, despite 13 years of Liberal nonsense since.

A prime example of how those cuts were beneficial overall is in my old neighbourhood in Windsor. A neighbourhood that was serviced by a half dozen elementary schools within a one mile radius, only one of which went beyond grade 6 and it was a French school. As a result there was also a "junior high school" just for grades 7 & 8.
None of the schools operated at anywhere near capacity except the junior high school and the French school. The solution was to shut down all but the two most centrally located schools(not including the French school), increase the capacity of the two remaining schools and have them go beyond grade 6. Result? A savings for the Windsor taxpayer.

Same with the hospitals in that city. There were four of them to service a population of less than 200,000. None of them were operating at anywhere near capacity so it made sense to close one of them, and it was the smallest of the four.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

Much of the problem came from those who were affected job-wise by the cuts because they expected that since they were unionized and being paid through the public purse, they had jobs for life.

Yeah, like when he laid off 40,000 nurses and said they were obsolete like the hoola hoop. Who needs nurses anyway? Passing fad who thought they were entitled to permanent employment.

$1:

A neighbourhood that was serviced by a half dozen elementary schools blah blah

Yes, Harris's commitment to eduction was evidenced by the fact that he appointed a high-school dropout as Minister of Education. Our High-school graduation rate in those days was just 68% compared to today's 83%. It was much more cost-efficient when those students would just drop out so we didn't have to spend money teaching them useless things like reading and basic math. I'm sure those kids turned out fine!

And yes, Harris finally ended the age-old complaint from citizens that we have too many hospitals and wait times are too short! It was a great job. People hate convenience especially when their healthcare is involved.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Yeah, like when he laid off 40,000 nurses and said they were obsolete like the hoola hoop. Who needs nurses anyway? Passing fad who thought they were entitled to permanent employment.

Why does Harris get the blame for the Federal Liberals slashing health care transfers and the Provinces having to make cuts to make ends meet?

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Yes, Harris's commitment to eduction was evidenced by the fact that he appointed a high-school dropout as Minister of Education. Our High-school graduation rate in those days was just 68% compared to today's 83%. It was much more cost-efficient when those students would just drop out so we didn't have to spend money teaching them useless things like reading and basic math. I'm sure those kids turned out fine!

High schools rarely teach basic reading and math....it's all calculus or algebra.

The school system in 1995 is far different than it is today. Having one less grade and different standards for credits helps too.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

Why does Harris get the blame for the Federal Liberals slashing health care transfers and the Provinces having to make cuts to make ends meet?

You're right, he should get no blame. He's the one politician in all of human history who has absolutely no responsibility for anything.

$1:

High schools rarely teach basic reading and math....it's all calculus or algebra.

The school system in 1995 is far different than it is today. Having one less grade and different standards for credits helps too.

Not sure what you're getting at here. Agree that one less school year is better but as we've established above, Harris isn't responsible for anything, so I guess he doesn't get any credit.

[Jabberwalker]

Well, he sold off the 407 for a fraction of its value.

Do the math.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You're right, he should get no blame. He's the one politician in all of human history who has absolutely no responsibility for anything.

He made some bad calls. No doubt. 407 was horrible idea...and there's more.

But lay blame where the blame is due. The cuts to health care were largely due to the Federal cuts....it was the same across Canada.

What people like you won't repeat is that the money that was removed from the system by Chretien and Martin was actually replaced by Harris and the Conservatives in the years following.

From the words of the current Ontario government, the Province doesn't employ nurses, hospitals do. This is in response to a few hundreds nurses being laid off this week in Ontario.

The Liberals like to talk about all the hospitals Harris closed when in fact, hardly any of them were actually closed.

[BeaverFever]

It's not just the value of the 407, dont' forget the special legal status that Harris gave the private, foreign-owned corporation:

- 407 ETR Corp is the only private company in Canada that can prevent you from renewing a drivers license if they claim you owe them money. Even if you are disputing the balance!

- 407 ETR Corp is the only private company in Canada whose bills are still collectible when the person is under bankruptcy protection laws, even if you are disputing the balance!

- Or the fact that Harris gave them a 99-year monopoly on the highway! How's that for "free market competition?" That's right, you guys at 407 Corp better treat the public right or when the highway lease is reviewed 100 years from now, you'll be sorry!

- Or the fact that Harris deal prohibits the Province from building any other roads or highways that could conceivably compete with the 407? Sorry citizens, we know that growing traffic problems mean you need a new highway badly, and we would build you one. but that would complete with ETR Corp. You'll have to pay them to drive on their highway - their profits are what's really important, not the public interest.

The above are not casual missteps, they are so unheard of and radical, that for them to be key parts of the largest privatization in Canadian history, it's obvious that they are the deliberate actions of far-right privatization ideologue.

And gosh if Harris was so hard up for cash and all these cuts were really so things he didn't want to do, why did he cut income taxes by 30%?

[Jabberwalker]

99-year monopoly

That's they astounding part. Imagine back 99 years ago wherever you live in Canada. Think about the 99 year old transportation infrastructure ... like the CPR or CNR for instance. Those networks are totally changed. Only the main lines remain the same most of the branches have been pruned long ago. This highway is a major one that runs right through the "growth" part of the region (but 75 years from now, it might be as relevant as the Soulange Canal by the St. Lawrence River is). Avoidance of the obscene tax/toll that is takes may skew the development of the region or our descendants will find funky ways of avoiding it all together. There is no historic precedence for this. I secretly hope that it will be found to be a criminally dirty deal and it will be expropriated back the the province where it belongs.