[martin14]

xerxes xerxes:

It's still the battle flag of the confederacy. A group of states that fought against the USA. In other words, a traitors flag.

It is still a...

[/quote]

[ShepherdsDog]

Yet in Canada we've elevated Lois Riel to the status of Founding Father. Crazy, rebel, murderer, traitor and a loser. Are you going to ask that the iron cross/Teutonic cross be removed from all German military equipment? After all, they lost twice.

[2Cdo]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

Yet in Canada we've elevated Lois Riel to the status of Founding Father. Crazy, rebel, murderer, traitor and a loser. Are you going to ask that the iron cross/Teutonic cross be removed from all German military equipment? After all, they lost twice.

When it comes to the traitorous Riel, he's the left's hero so his statue can remain.

[ShepherdsDog]

Funny how many fall for propaganda being accepted as actual history. It'd be nice if they could pick an actual history book up once in awhile, rather than unthinkingly accepting their POV from MSM soundbytes. .

Except for a tiny, tiny minority of the John Brown types, the northern army was fighting solely to stop the dissolution of the Union, not to free blacks. As I've pointed out already, the Republicans and Lincoln were willing to allow slavery to continue in the slave states, just not in new territories and states.

Most of the southerners weren't fighting to keep slavery, as they were too poor to own slaves, they were fighting what they saw as a hostile invading federal army trying to strip away States rights.

[Public_Domain]

[xerxes]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

xerxes xerxes:

It's still the battle flag of the confederacy. A group of states that fought against the USA. In other words, a traitors flag.

In other words, "When it's shown that I am wrong, I'll double down and say it's something else."

Do you even know all the reasons why there was a war. I'll give you a hint on the big one, think naval blockade.

Do you?

From the Secession statement of South Carolina:

$1:

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the *forms* [emphasis in the original] of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.
...
Sectional interest and animosity will deepen the irritation, and all hope of remedy is rendered vain, by the fact that public opinion at the North has invested a great political error with the sanction of more erroneous religious belief.

From the secession statement of Mississippi:

$1:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

Secession statement of Texas:

$1:

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

From Alexander Stephens, VP of the Confederacy on the day the war started:

$1:

Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material -- the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made “one star to differ from another star in glory. The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws.

Speech of Secession Commissioner S.F. Hale of Alabama to Gov. Magoffin of Kentucky encouraging secession to avoid racial equality and the “lust of half-civilized Africans.”

$1:

"(Seward) claims for free negroes the right of suffrage, and an equal voice in the Government—in a word, all the rights of citizenship, although the Federal Constitution, as construed by the highest judicial tribunal in the world, does not recognize Africans imported into this country as slaves, or their descendants, whether free or slaves, as citizens. These were the issues presented in the last Presidential canvass, and upon these the American people passed at the ballot-box.

"Upon the principles then announced by Mr. Lincoln and his leading friends, we are bound to expect his administration to be conducted. Hence it is, that in high places, among the Republi­can party, the election of Mr. Lincoln is hailed, not simply as it change of Administration, but as the inauguration of new princi­ples, and a new theory of Government, and even as the downfall of slavery. Therefore it is that the election of Mr. Lincoln cannot be regarded otherwise than a solemn declaration, on the part of a great majority of the Northern people, of hostility to the South, her property and her institutions—nothing less than an open declaration of war—for the triumph of this new theory of Government destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and. her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans. Especially is this true in the cotton-growing States, where, in many localities, the slave outnumbers the white population ten to one."

[ShepherdsDog]

So is Mississippi going to have to change its state flag?

[ShepherdsDog]

xerxes xerxes:

2Cdo 2Cdo:

xerxes xerxes:

It's still the battle flag of the confederacy. A group of states that fought against the USA. In other words, a traitors flag.

In other words, "When it's shown that I am wrong, I'll double down and say it's something else."

Do you even know all the reasons why there was a war. I'll give you a hint on the big one, think naval blockade.

Do you?

From the Secession statement of South Carolina:

$1:

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the *forms* [emphasis in the original] of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.
...
Sectional interest and animosity will deepen the irritation, and all hope of remedy is rendered vain, by the fact that public opinion at the North has invested a great political error with the sanction of more erroneous religious belief.

From the secession statement of Mississippi:

$1:

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove.

Secession statement of Texas:

$1:

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

From Alexander Stephens, VP of the Confederacy on the day the war started:

$1:

Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material -- the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made “one star to differ from another star in glory. The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws.

Speech of Secession Commissioner S.F. Hale of Alabama to Gov. Magoffin of Kentucky encouraging secession to avoid racial equality and the “lust of half-civilized Africans.”

$1:

"(Seward) claims for free negroes the right of suffrage, and an equal voice in the Government—in a word, all the rights of citizenship, although the Federal Constitution, as construed by the highest judicial tribunal in the world, does not recognize Africans imported into this country as slaves, or their descendants, whether free or slaves, as citizens. These were the issues presented in the last Presidential canvass, and upon these the American people passed at the ballot-box.

"Upon the principles then announced by Mr. Lincoln and his leading friends, we are bound to expect his administration to be conducted. Hence it is, that in high places, among the Republi­can party, the election of Mr. Lincoln is hailed, not simply as it change of Administration, but as the inauguration of new princi­ples, and a new theory of Government, and even as the downfall of slavery. Therefore it is that the election of Mr. Lincoln cannot be regarded otherwise than a solemn declaration, on the part of a great majority of the Northern people, of hostility to the South, her property and her institutions—nothing less than an open declaration of war—for the triumph of this new theory of Government destroys the property of the South, lays waste her fields, and inaugurates all the horrors of a San Domingo servile insurrection, consigning her citizens to assassinations, and. her wives and daughters to pollution and violation, to gratify the lust of half-civilized Africans. Especially is this true in the cotton-growing States, where, in many localities, the slave outnumbers the white population ten to one."

And are really naive enough to believe these views on race were really any different from those held by the majority in the north??

[CDN_PATRIOT]

xerxes xerxes:

And how are the calls for taking down the Confederate Flag evidence of nefarious group-think? IT's a symbol of treason and racism, not to mention the flag of the side that lost.

Call it what you will, but it's a piece of American history that should be preserved. To let is be wiped away just because of one nutbar's opinions and actions is to already be defeated. If anything, this flag should be flown with the American flag to show that no one man can harm a nation or their history.

Because when something like this happens, we all lose. If there's nothing left for any new generations to learn about, then why let the world continue?




-J.

[ShepherdsDog]

I remember being in Brandon years ago and a column of German armour, from Shilo, came through town. There were still plenty of WWII vets alive at the time. Each and every one of them had an Iron Cross on its side....the same symbol used by the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS. Should they have been banned?

[andyt]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

Call it what you will, but it's a piece of American history that should be preserved. To let is be wiped away just because of one nutbar's opinions and actions is to already be defeated. If anything, this flag should be flown with the American flag to show that no one man can harm a nation or their history.

Because when something like this happens, we all lose. If there's nothing left for any new generations to learn about, then why let the world continue?




-J.

I was going until I realized that it was CDN patriot, not CDN mind that was posting.

By this argument, the US should also be flying the Union Jack along side the Stars and Stripes, and Canada flying the Fleur de Lis.

[andyt]

Regina Regina:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

I remember being in Brandon years ago and a column of German armour, from Shilo, came through town. There were still plenty of WWII vets alive at the time. Each and every one of them had an Iron Cross on its side....the same symbol used by the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS. Should they have been banned?

Iron Cross no. Swastika yes.

Germans have been using he Iron Cross since 1219. So Muslims might not like it, but can't see any Westerner having a problem with it. Hell, the Muuuuuslim haters should love it.

[ShepherdsDog]

Regina Regina:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

I remember being in Brandon years ago and a column of German armour, from Shilo, came through town. There were still plenty of WWII vets alive at the time. Each and every one of them had an Iron Cross on its side....the same symbol used by the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS. Should they have been banned?

Iron Cross no. Swastika yes.

The regular military didn't. They just had the crosshairs for Allied tanks to bounce rounds off of.

[N_Fiddledog]

Here's another way to look at it.

From Mark Steyn:

"All-Time World Champions of Institutional Racism


On Wednesday night I swung by Hannity on Fox News to discuss the Democratic Party's uniquely appalling record on racism - unique in the English-speaking world, that is.

The starting point, of course, was the Confederate flag flap. The Confederate flag means nothing to me one way or another. Nor does it seem to have meant much to this racist murderer Roof. I mean, he seems to have had no particular objection to it as a cultural marker for genial rednecks in pick-ups - or whatever Howard Dean meant when he said he wanted the votes of fellows with Confederate flags on their trucks. But it evidently didn't do it for Roof as a serious emblem of white supremacism, which is why he favored on his garb the flags of apartheid South Africa and UDI Rhodesia.

So as usual the Democrats and media have artfully loosed a total distraction whose only purpose is to put Republicans on the defensive and force them to fold on something while we're waiting on them to fold on Obamacare or the immigration amnesty. As I always say, the GOP's so good at folding they ought to be White House valets.

But even for the Stupid Party you have to be the chumps of the planet to let the Democrats hang what is uniquely their history round your neck.

You can see my entire interview with Sean here:

Steyn added that the "Democratic Party was the largest and most powerful institution supporting slavery in the English speaking world."

It's a party with an incredible century and a half history of institutional racism. There's nothing like it anywhere on the planet.

Steyn said, "I know the GOP is called the stupid party, but the idea that Republicans can have the Confederate flag hung around their neck is ridiculous. It's a Democrat flag. The flags — the states that seceded during the Civil War were all Democrat states, that's their flag, the slave states were Democrat states, the racist states, until the 1960s, were Democrat states. The Democratic Party is the — was the largest and most powerful institution supporting slavery in the English-speaking world. And it's the only one that has survived till the 21st century."

He continued, "it's their flag, Hillary Clinton had it on campaign bumper stickers when she ran for president in 2008. You mentioned Robert C. Byrd, Sean. Bill Clinton was doing Klu Klux Klan Grand Kleagle jokes at Byrd's funeral, saying, Robert C. Byrd, he used to — was the Grand Kleagle, he just did what he had to do."


I mean that. The Anglo-Celts who settled America and elsewhere are not great slavers. No slavery in Canada, or Australia, or New Hampshire. In the anglosphere, slaveholding was an enthusiasm of the southern states of the US, and the biggest institutional supporter of slavery - in the entire English-speaking world - was the Democratic Party. And, after slavery was abolished by Republicans, the Democrats created a century-long apparatus of enforced segregation and anti-miscegenation laws, again unique in the English-speaking world.

The only comparable movement was Afrikaaner nationaliism in South Africa, and as I said to Sean:

'People go on about apartheid South Africa; the National Party came to power in 1948 and they were gone 45 years later. That's how long they lasted and they're nothing now.

The Democratic Party has never come to terms with the evil of its past. It was a party committed to the proposition that one human being could own another human being and they've never said a word about that. They've never apologized for it. They've never atoned for it in the way that they have the reconciliation commission in South Africa.'

I mentioned the faintly absurd phenomenon started a few years ago of western politicians apologizing for historical events - Tony Blair for the Irish potato famine, Brian Mulroney for the internment of Japanese Canadians, etc. And then I wondered:

When is the Democratic Party going to apologize for being the biggest slave-holding supporting institution on the planet and sticking with racism for the century after the abolition of slavery?

In no other country would the Democratic Party still be here. It would have gone the way of the National Party.

You can watch the entire interview here."

[N_Fiddledog]

So if you were serious about wanting to extirpate the historical, or ideological sources of racism the first thing you'd want vanished would be the Democrat Party. But we all know the types calling for the Confederate flag wipeout won't be doing that...ever.

Why not then?