[Newsbot]

<strong>Title: </strong> <a href="/link.php?id=26590" target="_blank">Who's to blame for China's emissions?</a> (click to view)

<strong>Category:</strong> <a href="/news/topic/20-environmental" target="_blank">Environmental</a>
<strong>Posted By: </strong> <a href="/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=hurley_108" target="_blank">hurley_108</a>
<strong>Date: </strong> 2007-10-29 10:06:09

[BartSimpson]

Canada sells coal and oil to China so...

[hurley_108]

This is something I've been wondering about for a long time. And it's not just China. Alberta is now the largest emitting province within Canada, but most of the growth is in the Oil Sands, and we export a lot of that to the US and other provinces.

Simply saying that a given political entity oversees a given amount of emissions gives a very restrictive perspective on the true nature of the issue.

[hurley_108]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Canada sells coal and oil to China so...

Did you even read the article?

[BartSimpson]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

Simply saying that a given political entity oversees a given amount of emissions gives a very restrictive perspective on the true nature of the issue.

I disagree.

China this year displaced the US as the #1 emitter of CO2 and other pollutants.

This occured because the West has exported their industrial capability to China and because we sell oil and coal to China to fuel that industry.

If we were serious about curbing emissions in China the first, easiest thing to do would be to stop selling oil and coal to China and then to bar Chinese imports.

[BartSimpson]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Canada sells coal and oil to China so...

Did you even read the article?

Yes, I did. And the article comes close to saying this but not nearly as directly as I do.

[hurley_108]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

Simply saying that a given political entity oversees a given amount of emissions gives a very restrictive perspective on the true nature of the issue.

I disagree.

China this year displaced the US as the #1 emitter of CO2 and other pollutants.

This occured because the West has exported their industrial capability to China and because we sell oil and coal to China to fuel that industry.

If we were serious about curbing emissions in China the first, easiest thing to do would be to stop selling oil and coal to China and then to bar Chinese imports.

Cutting them off from our fuel wouldn't be enough. They've got plenty of coal - and dirty coal at that. They've also got a few billion barrels of oil reserves of their own. If we cut them off from our fuel, they'll just use their own. If we're serious about getting them to reduce their emissions, we've got to stop buying their stuff.

[neopundit]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

Cutting them off from our fuel wouldn't be enough. They've got plenty of coal - and dirty coal at that. They've also got a few billion barrels of oil reserves of their own. If we cut them off from our fuel, they'll just use their own. If we're serious about getting them to reduce their emissions, we've got to stop buying their stuff.

Then we need to buy our stuff somewhere. Shift the production here? That will increase emissions here, though less than what they be in China. However, goods would be more expensive.

[hurley_108]

neopundit neopundit:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

Cutting them off from our fuel wouldn't be enough. They've got plenty of coal - and dirty coal at that. They've also got a few billion barrels of oil reserves of their own. If we cut them off from our fuel, they'll just use their own. If we're serious about getting them to reduce their emissions, we've got to stop buying their stuff.

Then we need to buy our stuff somewhere. Shift the production here? That will increase emissions here, though less than what they be in China. However, goods would be more expensive.

At least it'd be honest. Blaming China for all the CO2 they produce masks the fact that they produce it to satisfy our demand for their stuff. They're exporting goods to us, we're exporting our slave labour and pollution.

[neopundit]

hurley_108 hurley_108:

At least it'd be honest. Blaming China for all the CO2 they produce masks the fact that they produce it to satisfy our demand for their stuff. They're exporting goods to us, we're exporting our slave labour and pollution.

Oh, well, agreed. My head wasn't really thinking in those terms.

Emissions and economics are both globally interconnected and should be treated as such. Blaming them for pollution is just as stupid as blaming them for defective products that result from us demanding dirt cheap goods. For some reason we do both.

[ridenrain]

This is a load of crap.
The spotlight showed China's horrid enviromental record and now their spinmongers have found a new line to deflect it.

The only people that had guns put to their heads to make things for the west were the Chinese political prisoners.

[hurley_108]

ridenrain ridenrain:

This is a load of crap.
The spotlight showed China's horrid enviromental record and now their spinmongers have found a new line to deflect it.

The only people that had guns put to their heads to make things for the west were the Chinese political prisoners.

You're a load of crap. You can't just export the unsavoury consequences of modern western living and pretend it's all China's fault. You can't export your pollution to a place known to have lax standards and say it's all their fault. You can't export all your draconian labour rules and say it's all their fault.

The US and Europe haven't reduced any pollution, they've just moved it to China. They haven't eliminated slavery, they've just moved it to India.

I want to know what Canada's balance is. Sure, we import a lot of crap from China, but we export a lot of oil to the US. What's Alberta's balance? We've got these enormous mega-emitters up in Fort Mac, and we get saddled with the emissions totals, but it's all in service of Eastern and foreign consumption.

There's no supply without demand. There's no pollution without consumption. The consumers are just as responsible as the emitters for the consequences of the transaction.

[ridenrain]

So by shuffling the deck, we can still blame the west and it's terrible greed? Give me a break.


You'd better add the Arab Emirates to you're list because their exempt from Kyoto as another developing country.

[sasquatch2]

Ridenrain

$1:

So by shuffling the deck, we can still blame the west and it's terrible greed? Give me a break.
You'd better add the Arab Emirates to you're list because their exempt from Kyoto as another developing country.

Pretty much.

China's intense polution is an inconvenient truth hence this desperate spin to blame it on us.

A sure sign that CO2 AGW is dying.

[hurley_108]

ridenrain ridenrain:

So by shuffling the deck, we can still blame the west and it's terrible greed? Give me a break.

More like by stacking the deck, you exonorate the west and it's terrible greed.

$1:

You'd better add the Arab Emirates to you're list because their exempt from Kyoto as another developing country.

Personally, I want to see a global breakdown of who emits what, how much is due to production for domestic consumption, and how much is due to production for foreign consumption. Further, break that last one down by country. I want to know ho much of the UAE's emissions are due to production for German consumption. I want to know how much of Guatemala's emissions are due to production for Canadian consumption. I want to know how much of Alberta's emissions are due to production for Ontarian consumption.

You can't sweep the emissions under the rug. The blow around the entire world. When I buy an iPod made in China, I'm responsible for the emissions from production of it from their coal plants.

You're deluded if you think that's not the case.