[andyt]

Canadianiam Canadianiam:

And should we retain that attitude even when the cultural norms for the vast majority of Canadians have different norms?

Are we prepared to force people at point of bayonet to speak English?
Notice I did not ask that of the French as they have some history of doing just that see recent language laws.

But is that what the you would want? A country not unlike a past South Africa where a minority controls the majority.

Would it not be better for all, including those who see that our British history is what made Canada great, to have equal rights for everyone?

That way those who wish to could celebrate their British or English history could do so without oppression when the tables turn.

Would it not be better to argue in the future that our rights as Multigenerational Canadians, or our rights as a minority, be protected because that is what we did when we had the power?

As it is, I would suggest, we have a system that ensures your fears will become reality.

Wow, a country where everybody just speaks whatever language they want - great idea.

The way to stop it is to stop or greatly reduce immigration. When only a few people come here every year, they adapt to the norms already present, instead of trying to re-create their homeland here. There's a reason they came here in the first place - if it's so good at home, stay there.

As for if we're nice to them now, they'll be nice to us later - what a wet dream. Any group that has the power will use it to run things their way. We do it now, except we seem determined to undermine ourselves. Crazy.

[mikewood86]

andyt andyt:

Canadianiam Canadianiam:

And should we retain that attitude even when the cultural norms for the vast majority of Canadians have different norms?

Are we prepared to force people at point of bayonet to speak English?
Notice I did not ask that of the French as they have some history of doing just that see recent language laws.

But is that what the you would want? A country not unlike a past South Africa where a minority controls the majority.

Would it not be better for all, including those who see that our British history is what made Canada great, to have equal rights for everyone?

That way those who wish to could celebrate their British or English history could do so without oppression when the tables turn.

Would it not be better to argue in the future that our rights as Multigenerational Canadians, or our rights as a minority, be protected because that is what we did when we had the power?

As it is, I would suggest, we have a system that ensures your fears will become reality.

Wow, a country where everybody just speaks whatever language they want - great idea.

The way to stop it is to stop or greatly reduce immigration. When only a few people come here every year, they adapt to the norms already present, instead of trying to re-create their homeland here. There's a reason they came here in the first place - if it's so good at home, stay there.

As for if we're nice to them now, they'll be nice to us later - what a wet dream. Any group that has the power will use it to run things their way. We do it now, except we seem determined to undermine ourselves. Crazy.

We can't greatly reduce immigration. We need it to keep the country going. It is a good thing.

I don't know why we can't find a happy medium where people assimilate to Canadian culture as is and still allow a healthy flow of worthy immigrants here.

I for one don't think the the entire country should have to change language and cultural norms/laws here. People come here for a reason and we can't accommodate everyone. If you want your culture that ingrained into Canada than the better option is to just stay where you came from.

[Canadianiam]

I would not disagree with controlled imnigration but I disagree that the people should not have a say in the system under which they are ruled.

The idea that treating people equally or allowing people a say in their government is being nice has given us many countries and many people fleeing from such countries.


I prefer to live in a country where at least the idea is that people are equal.
That can't happen if you suceed in trying to force your language and your culture on everyone else.

So while I hope you do not get your race war I can certianly see that future.

[andyt]

mikewood86 mikewood86:

We can't greatly reduce immigration. We need it to keep the country going. It is a good thing.

I don't know why we can't find a happy medium where people assimilate to Canadian culture as is and still allow a healthy flow of worthy immigrants here.

I for one don't think the the entire country should have to change language and cultural norms/laws here. People come here for a reason and we can't accommodate everyone. If you want your culture that ingrained into Canada than the better option is to just stay where you came from.

Actually, immigrants cost the government 18,000,0000,0000 more than they contribute in taxes. They depress wages, which allows companies to not invest in technology that would improve productivity. They strain our infrastructure. And in a recession they just take away jobs that should be going to Canadians already here. http://www.vancouversun.com/Immigration+policies+need+public+political+debate/2268181/story.html
To change the demograhics of this country, reverse the aging trend, we would have to triple our intake to 750,000 annually, and make sure they're all young people, no family class grannies and grandpas. Is that what you want/

[bootlegga]

Immigration is a good thing for Canada.

Last time I checked, immigrants didn't bring houses with them. Most also don't bring cars, TVs, or lots of other consumer goods either, which means they buy them here, creating jobs for Canadians (be it in construction, or the retail shop they bought or the car factory they were made). Then they get jobs and pay taxes and contribute to society.

And given that the majority of 2nd generation immigrants assimilates into Canadian society, I don't see what the big deal is.

People against immigration are usually not so much against immigration, as against where the immigrants come from. Many of them wouldn't be complaining if the 250,000 or so folks who come here every year came from London or Paris. It's only because they come from Shanghai, Calcutta or Cairo that people bitch.

This has been an issue since Canada was founded, when the French complained of the United Empire Loyalists from the US, who complained about the Irish and the Scots, who complained about the Germans and Ukrainians, who complained about the Chinese and Japanese.

Same shit, different day. Get over it already...

[andyt]

Canadianiam Canadianiam:

I would not disagree with controlled imnigration but I disagree that the people should not have a say in the system under which they are ruled.

The idea that treating people equally or allowing people a say in their government is being nice has given us many countries and many people fleeing from such countries.


I prefer to live in a country were the at least the idea is that people are equal.
That can't happen if you suceed in trying to force your language and your culture on everyone else.

So while I hope you do not get your race war I can certianly see that future.

Of course all Canadians have a say in our system. We're a democracy. But that doesn't mean we owe it to them to bring in flood of newcomers who want to change the system. The Chinese, say, with their "a little dictatorship is a good thing" attitude.

Those immigrants already have a place where their language is spoken and their customs practiced. If that's important to them, let them stay there. Why do we owe it to them to change ours?

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Immigration is a good thing for Canada.

Last time I checked, immigrants didn't bring houses with them. Most also don't bring cars, TVs, or lots of other consumer goods either, which means they buy them here, creating jobs for Canadians (be it in construction, or the retail shop they bought or the car factory they were made). Then they get jobs and pay taxes and contribute to society.

And given that the majority of 2nd generation immigrants assimilates into Canadian society, I don't see what the big deal is.

People against immigration are usually not so much against immigration, as against where the immigrants come from. Many of them wouldn't be complaining if the 250,000 or so folks who come here every year came from London or Paris. It's only because they come from Shanghai, Calcutta or Cairo that people bitch.

This has been an issue since Canada was founded, when the French complained of the United Empire Loyalists from the US, who complained about the Irish and the Scots, who complained about the Germans and Ukrainians, who complained about the Chinese and Japanese.

Same shit, different day. Get over it already...

As I said, a study showed that immigrants cost us 18 bil more than they contribute. The big cities are straining under the load, we don't need the influx, can't handle it. We can only build houses on available land - the immigrants aren't bringing that with them either. Where are you from again? We'e established you don't live in Vancouver. If you don't live in Toronto, then you don't really know what it's like.

I would object to 250,000 people coming from anywhere. We don't have the jobs or the infrastructure for them. At one time I would have argued that people from Britain or Western Europe would assimilate easier, but since those countries have also let in so many non-native Europeans, it's not a safe bet we would get truly integrated people from there either. And I wouldn't want to have 250,000 extra Limeys a year running around here either.

[mikewood86]

Canadianiam Canadianiam:

I prefer to live in a country where at least the idea is that people are equal.
That can't happen if you suceed in trying to force your language and your culture on everyone else.

I disagree with this on so many levels. Just because our languages are english and french, you are basically saying that if an immigrant does not want to speak those languages than they are not considered or feel equal? I mean do some research before you come then, these are our languages, learn to speak them.
Also, you make the word "force" seem like there is a gun being held to their heads. If they can choose to come here to a free and prosperous country with countless oppurtunities for a better life, than they can follow some simple norms here, no?

[andyt]

Canadianiam's position is so far out there, he might be having us on. I hope.

$1:

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do

Well somebody's got to go first, so let's just dissolve our borders and see what happens.

[CommanderSock]

The article said Canada will be 1/3 visible minority by 2030. So 66% of the population will consist of whites and native Canadians.

Interesting.


Whites are already a minority in Toronto though.






Interesting tangent on no borders topics, perhaps a topic worthy of its own thread.

With the way technology is integrating people all across the globe, languages are disappearing, (300 million Chinese students currently speak English for example), cultural norms transcending across borders, and inter-racial unions at a historical global high, it won't be too farfetched to assume within 5-600 years we will not have nation states.

Nation states have long outlived their usefulness, and now globalization has been driving the final nail into their coffins.

[bootlegga]

andyt andyt:

As I said, a study showed that immigrants cost us 18 bil more than they contribute. The big cities are straining under the load, we don't need the influx, can't handle it. We can only build houses on available land - the immigrants aren't bringing that with them either. Where are you from again? We'e established you don't live in Vancouver. If you don't live in Toronto, then you don't really know what it's like.

I would object to 250,000 people coming from anywhere. We don't have the jobs or the infrastructure for them. At one time I would have argued that people from Britain or Western Europe would assimilate easier, but since those countries have also let in so many non-native Europeans, it's not a safe bet we would get truly integrated people from there either. And I wouldn't want to have 250,000 extra Limeys a year running around here either.

I never said that immigrants contribute much in the way of taxes, but the very fact of them living here, buying food, paying rent/mortgage, paying for utilities and the rest is an economic boon to Canada. One of the biggest reasons they don't pay enough taxes is because they wind up working low wage jobs, like driving taxi or working at 7/11. Even if they were considered skilled by CIC officers overseas, many immigrants wind up spending years trying to re-certify to meet Canadian standards. I'm fine with that, but that's why they don't pay taxes, not because they are lazy and suck social benefits. Take away the last decades worth of immigrants (at 250,000 or so per year, that's roughly 2.5 million) and the boom we just had would not have happened at all, simply because demand for housing, gas, and everything else would have been far lower.

You think that because I don't live in Toronto or Vancouver I have no idea of immigration? Oh yeah, 100% of all immigrants go to only those two cities right? Give your head a shake...

[sandorski]

If longtime Canadians hold the course and not knee-jerk their way, New Canadians and their Children will Canadianize just fine.