[DrCaleb]

llama66 llama66:

I've never made a mistake where anyone has died. I don't think we call those mistakes.

I have, and you are right, it was a choice. A guy was driving his motorcycle drunk, tried to turn in front of me and laid his bike down with his passenger. There was no time to stop, and the side of the road had two people hitch hiking. I chose to hit, and kill, the motorcyclist and his passenger and not the hitch hikers.

I've also had several really bad crashes that resulted in people being hurt, including myself. Although they were related to road conditions, not my choice. 'Accidents' in the true sense. Police said there were at least 3 similar incidents a week at that intersection, until they dropped the speed limit.

llama66 llama66:

The fact is he wouldn't have been allowed to drive if an inspector stopped him and inspected his logbook and truck. I give him full marks for owning this, but... The collision was merely the cherry on his negligence cake.

Lets not apologize for the actions of a man who, despite owning what he did, deserves what he got.

Not apologising. I don't think anyone here was. Just trying to understand.

I used to be safety supervisor for a company that ran a fleet of trucks, and was the guy who had to issue and inspect the log books every driver had to keep. In theory. I was just the guy who had to go through the motions, in the event of an audit. The company didn't enforce drivers having to do this, so the culture of safety in the company was non-existent. Like this guy, it was just a matter of time before something bad happened. And if an inspector pulled one of the trucks over, the whole fleet would have been parked.

[DrCaleb]

Oh! And there was an incident at that company.

Two trucks were transferring a high-reach lift from one trailer to another on an icy lot at Suncor. The safety supervisor issued a memo that trailers were to be chained together, and wheel chocks used whenver this procedure was to happen.

They didn't, and when the guy drove the ~15 ton machine from one trailer to the other, the trailers slid on the ice and the long boom caused the guy in the basket to be fired like a projectile from a trebouchet. He was in hospital for weeks before he died, because he also did not pay attention to the memo saying 'always wear your harness in a moving lift'.

[llama66]

$1:

I have, and you are right, it was a choice. A guy was driving his motorcycle drunk, tried to turn in front of me and laid his bike down with his passenger. There was no time to stop, and the side of the road had two people hitch hiking. I chose to hit, and kill, the motorcyclist and his passenger and not the hitch hikers.

Dude, that is a brutal decision to make, but that's an accident. 100%. No one could fault you. At all. I couldn't imagine having to make that choice.

But in your case, you had no time to stop.

I do you were charged, and if you were the charges were dropped later; after the investigation.

The truck driver made no effort to stop, he hit the bus at 90km/h. You, I imagine, were trying to stop when you put your car into the Motorbike.

At the end of the day, we can bitch and moan about the sentence and fault and what kind of person the driver was; and none of it will change what happened on that day. Those kids are not coming back, those lives will not be unaffected.

[raydan]

I've never been involved in an accident where someone got hurt, let alone killed... killed a dog once though, but it was that or a head on collision at 80k.


EDIT: Ran over and killed a chicken once too.

[DrCaleb]

llama66 llama66:

$1:

I have, and you are right, it was a choice. A guy was driving his motorcycle drunk, tried to turn in front of me and laid his bike down with his passenger. There was no time to stop, and the side of the road had two people hitch hiking. I chose to hit, and kill, the motorcyclist and his passenger and not the hitch hikers.

Dude, that is a brutal decision to make, but that's an accident. 100%. No one could fault you. At all. I couldn't imagine having to make that choice.

It's still a memory I don't like to revisit. But over the years I got comfortable with the choice to not hurt the bystanders, but hurt the person who made the mistake instead. (Who was also driving drunk, I later learned.) It's quite amazing how situations like that seem to happen in slow motion, and how quickly decisions are made.

llama66 llama66:

But in your case, you had no time to stop.

I do you were charged, and if you were the charges were dropped later; after the investigation.

The truck driver made no effort to stop, he hit the bus at 90km/h. You, I imagine, were trying to stop when you put your car into the Motorbike.

I actually did have time to at least slow down. But in the instant after I chose not to hurt the innocent, I also chose not to hit the brakes because the people going under my car would become road smears by my stopped tires. It made no difference though, as one guy had his ribcage crushed by the weight of my car, and the other guy's helmet was wedged in front of my wheel, pinned between the lower control arm and the pavement, but his body was far behind my car.

I think that is where I get my dark sense of humour from, and why I choose to drive like a maniac on a race track but like a 90 year old grandma on public roads.

There were no charges, but I got a stay overnight in a motel while my car was taken apart and inspected to make sure there were no mechanical problems that contributed to the incident. I was on my way the next morning, with compliments from the RCMP on how well kept my car was. What happened was obvious to the investigators, and my story was corroborated by the hitchikers.

llama66 llama66:

At the end of the day, we can bitch and moan about the sentence and fault and what kind of person the driver was; and none of it will change what happened on that day. Those kids are not coming back, those lives will not be unaffected.

Absolutely. But at least I can empathize to how a moments decisions can affect your life and the lives of others in a very significant way.

And I learnt not to fuck with a '75 Buick, because the Buick will always win.

[DrCaleb]

raydan raydan:

I've never been involved in an accident where someone got hurt, let alone killed... killed a dog once though, but it was that or a head on collision at 80k.


EDIT: Ran over and killed a chicken once too.

I've hit lots of wildlife. Some Rabbit stands on it's hind legs in the middle of the lane . . . I don't know that I hit it, but it likely got clobbered by the diff of my truck. Grouse, coyotes, lots and lots of gophers. . .

In a choice between my life and theirs, I chose mine when I have no other choice. I don't want to hit them, but there it is.

[Prof_Chomsky]

I really don't understand the insanity here. I understand the anger, and the desire for punishment. But this is about justice.

The guy ran a stop sign. Stupid, stupid thing to do. He was distracted, possibly tired and whatever else, but it was the VERY definition of an accident. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is literally attempting to redefine the English meaning of the word.

I'd bet both my nuts that not a single person on this thread who drives can say they haven't accidentally done one of the following things:

1. ran a stop sign
2. crossed over the oncoming traffic lane when they shouldn't have
3. passed a car in a manner that turned out to be unsafe
4. lost sight of traffic in the sun
5. drove tired
6. been in some sort of accident that was their fault
7. been in a "weather related" accident

The "weather related" one is what I love most because, I've driven in the shittiest of conditions before and if you get in an "accident" in that weather where your car spun out or couldn't stop/turn, it IS your fault by the same logic as this guy running a stop sign due to a momentary lapse of concentration. I’ve driven for 25 years and never had an at fault accident, and never once been in a weather related accident even though I was out on unsafe roads for whatever reason – because I drove appropriately. You chose to drive in that shitty weather. You choose to drive too fast, or go on a road you shouldn't have. By the exact same logic you’re using to condemn this truck driver you could say that wasn't an accident too. Now imagine if someone died as a result of any of the above 7 reasons and YOU were driving. Really think about that for a second. What sort of justice is served in destroying yet another life over an accident?

This guy fucked up. He owned it. He wasn't drunk, high, or speeding. And he didn't even have an unsafe driving record. All the shit about his log books and whatever played no part in this accident. He got 8 years and his life is ruined. Justice is really 2 things. Punishment to deter future crimes, and, rehabilitation to stop recidivism by the offending party. This sentence is about as fair a balance as you're going to get. Nothing else you can do to this guy is going to bring those kids back, or teach him to drive better, or stop other drivers from momentary lapses in concentration. It's a shit situation for everyone involved.

There are few things worse than hypocrites. If you're calling this anything but an accident, and you’re not Christ himself, you're a hypocrite.

[DrCaleb]

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

The guy ran a stop sign. Stupid, stupid thing to do. He was distracted, possibly tired and whatever else, but it was the VERY definition of an accident. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is literally attempting to redefine the English meaning of the word.

I'd bet both my nuts that not a single person on this thread who drives can say they haven't accidentally done one of the following things:

1. ran a stop sign
2. crossed over the oncoming traffic lane when they shouldn't have
3. passed a car in a manner that turned out to be unsafe
4. lost sight of traffic in the sun
5. drove tired
6. been in some sort of accident that was their fault
7. been in a "weather related" accident

But none of the conditions you describe are 'accidents'. They are 'choices'. Someone chose to be distracted, someone chose to turn unsafely, someone chose to not wear sunglasses, someone chose to drive when the weather was poor.

An 'accident' is when someone else does something unsafe, and you are involved in the mayhem.

This truck driver did not run the stop sign by 'accident'. He chose to be distracted. The bus driver had an accident, that was caused by the truck driver's choice to be distracted.

We aren't re-defining 'accident', we are distinguishing between the two actions.

[llama66]

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

I really don't understand the insanity here. I understand the anger, and the desire for punishment. But this is about justice.

The guy ran a stop sign. Stupid, stupid thing to do. He was distracted, possibly tired and whatever else, but it was the VERY definition of an accident. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is literally attempting to redefine the English meaning of the word.

I'd bet both my nuts that not a single person on this thread who drives can say they haven't accidentally done one of the following things:

1. ran a stop sign
2. crossed over the oncoming traffic lane when they shouldn't have
3. passed a car in a manner that turned out to be unsafe
4. lost sight of traffic in the sun
5. drove tired
6. been in some sort of accident that was their fault
7. been in a "weather related" accident

The "weather related" one is what I love most because, I've driven in the shittiest of conditions before and if you get in an "accident" in that weather where your car spun out or couldn't stop/turn, it IS your fault by the same logic as this guy running a stop sign due to a momentary lapse of concentration. I’ve driven for 25 years and never had an at fault accident, and never once been in a weather related accident even though I was out on unsafe roads for whatever reason – because I drove appropriately. You chose to drive in that shitty weather. You choose to drive too fast, or go on a road you shouldn't have. By the exact same logic you’re using to condemn this truck driver you could say that wasn't an accident too. Now imagine if someone died as a result of any of the above 7 reasons and YOU were driving. Really think about that for a second. What sort of justice is served in destroying yet another life over an accident?

This guy fucked up. He owned it. He wasn't drunk, high, or speeding. And he didn't even have an unsafe driving record. All the shit about his log books and whatever played no part in this accident. He got 8 years and his life is ruined. Justice is really 2 things. Punishment to deter future crimes, and, rehabilitation to stop recidivism by the offending party. This sentence is about as fair a balance as you're going to get. Nothing else you can do to this guy is going to bring those kids back, or teach him to drive better, or stop other drivers from momentary lapses in concentration. It's a shit situation for everyone involved.

There are few things worse than hypocrites. If you're calling this anything but an accident, and you’re not Christ himself, you're a hypocrite.

So then, he's not responsible for what he did. Guys! let him out of jail! It was an accident!

[Prof_Chomsky]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

The guy ran a stop sign. Stupid, stupid thing to do. He was distracted, possibly tired and whatever else, but it was the VERY definition of an accident. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is literally attempting to redefine the English meaning of the word.

I'd bet both my nuts that not a single person on this thread who drives can say they haven't accidentally done one of the following things:

1. ran a stop sign
2. crossed over the oncoming traffic lane when they shouldn't have
3. passed a car in a manner that turned out to be unsafe
4. lost sight of traffic in the sun
5. drove tired
6. been in some sort of accident that was their fault
7. been in a "weather related" accident

But none of the conditions you describe are 'accidents'. They are 'choices'. Someone chose to be distracted, someone chose to turn unsafely, someone chose to not wear sunglasses, someone chose to drive when the weather was poor.

An 'accident' is when someone else does something unsafe, and you are involved in the mayhem.

This truck driver did not run the stop sign by 'accident'. He chose to be distracted. The bus driver had an accident, that was caused by the truck driver's choice to be distracted.

We aren't re-defining 'accident', we are distinguishing between the two actions.

All 7 of those things are momentary lapses in judgement or concentration. And any of them could result in an accident causing death. Choosing to be distracted is something like texting. Being distracted by a tarp that just started flapping, or a kid on the side of the road is life.

ac·ci·dent
/ˈaksədənt/Submit
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

[Prof_Chomsky]

llama66 llama66:

So then, he's not responsible for what he did. Guys! let him out of jail! It was an accident!

I never said that. I specifically said 8 years was "about as fair as you're gonna get".

Let's do a logic thought puzzle here.

Imagine you decide to put your garbage outside during a storm and it isn't secured properly. That garbage can blows into the street, causing a fatal accident. The cops see the garbage can and it has your name and address on it and you admit you put it outside during a windy day. You feel horrible you didn't secure it better and guilty as hell.

Are you:
A) guilty of stupidly putting your garbage outside without securing it properly
B) guilty of causing death

What should your punishment be?

[herbie]

$1:

7. been in a "weather related" accident

That one's my favorite.
It was the black ice

No it wasn't it was you - the twat that wasn't prepared for it.

[DrCaleb]

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

All 7 of those things are momentary lapses in judgement or concentration. And any of them could result in an accident causing death. Choosing to be distracted is something like texting. Being distracted by a tarp that just started flapping, or a kid on the side of the road is life.

ac·ci·dent
/ˈaksədənt/Submit
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

An 'accident' by definition is not preventable. Rolling down the road and getting buried by an avalanche is an 'accident'. Texting, a flapping tarp, are all intentional. The driver could have chosen to pull over and secure his load and then kept his focus on the road, rather than run a stop sign and kill a bus load of kids.

It's a choice.

[llama66]

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

The guy ran a stop sign. Stupid, stupid thing to do. He was distracted, possibly tired and whatever else, but it was the VERY definition of an accident. Anyone trying to argue otherwise is literally attempting to redefine the English meaning of the word.

I'd bet both my nuts that not a single person on this thread who drives can say they haven't accidentally done one of the following things:

1. ran a stop sign
2. crossed over the oncoming traffic lane when they shouldn't have
3. passed a car in a manner that turned out to be unsafe
4. lost sight of traffic in the sun
5. drove tired
6. been in some sort of accident that was their fault
7. been in a "weather related" accident

But none of the conditions you describe are 'accidents'. They are 'choices'. Someone chose to be distracted, someone chose to turn unsafely, someone chose to not wear sunglasses, someone chose to drive when the weather was poor.

An 'accident' is when someone else does something unsafe, and you are involved in the mayhem.

This truck driver did not run the stop sign by 'accident'. He chose to be distracted. The bus driver had an accident, that was caused by the truck driver's choice to be distracted.

We aren't re-defining 'accident', we are distinguishing between the two actions.

All 7 of those things are momentary lapses in judgement or concentration. And any of them could result in an accident causing death. Choosing to be distracted is something like texting. Being distracted by a tarp that just started flapping, or a kid on the side of the road is life.

ac·ci·dent
/ˈaksədənt/Submit
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

I like the apologizing and minimizing. The guy plead guilty, before trial- because he knew going to trial would still result in his being found guilty, which mean they (the crown) would be able to prove both actus reas and mens rea. Which negates your entire argument. And just because it's unexpected doesn't make it an accident. Was the Titanic an accident? Was the Challenger an accident? Was World War 2 an accident? No, despite being unexpected, none of these were Accidents, all stemmed from some form of human stupidity; Be it going 26 knots through an icefield, not properly inspecting the shuttle or appeasing Hitler to the point where he just took. Not Accidents. Neither was this.

[Prof_Chomsky]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Prof_Chomsky Prof_Chomsky:

All 7 of those things are momentary lapses in judgement or concentration. And any of them could result in an accident causing death. Choosing to be distracted is something like texting. Being distracted by a tarp that just started flapping, or a kid on the side of the road is life.

ac·ci·dent
/ˈaksədənt/Submit
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

An 'accident' by definition is not preventable. Rolling down the road and getting buried by an avalanche is an 'accident'. Texting, a flapping tarp, are all intentional. The driver could have chosen to pull over and secure his load and then kept his focus on the road, rather than run a stop sign and kill a bus load of kids.

It's a choice.

You're redefining "accident" again. You can't fight a dictionary.

Accidents are almost always preventable. That avalanche zone should have been marked or closed off, or cleared - that's why after every single accident they investigate and try to rethink how they got there and if they can prevent future accidents. "Momentary distraction" is called being human. Having that cause death is the shittiest of luck.