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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:33 pm
 


It's not a religious symbol, it's a scarf. To keep her hair in place. Just like Yo' Momma wore.
Controversy avoided....


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:55 am
 


^^^ This! And end of discussion!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:46 am
 


It's also not unusual for a woman to wear a head scarf if they are self-conscious of hair loss, whether due to chemotherapy or another health related reason. Can you imagine the uproar if a woman was asked to remove a headscarf under these circumstances?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:55 am
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Dress codes can be worked out by school boards.


Your question got me thinking.

Quebec funds the Catholic School board. They are government employees. Are they forbidden from wearing crosses, and nuns from wearing Habits?

The Supreme Court has something to say:

$1:
"Although the state's purpose is secular, this amounts to requiring a Catholic institution to speak about its own religion in terms defined by the state rather than by its own understanding," she wrote. Telling Loyola how to explain Catholicism to its students "seriously interferes with freedom of religion."


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/na ... e23533643/

IANAL, but I think that not allowing a woman to teach because she wears a headscarf might be on the wrong side of the constitution.


It is. That's why they used the Notwithstanding clause of the constitution and also exempted that law from the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms (much easier since it is just a bill, not a constitution).

It's quite ingenious in fact. The CAQ (Coalition Avenir Québec, majority party in Quebec and running the Government) says they have put the separation question aside, but uses that kind of "wedge politics" to try to demonstrate the "differences" between the Anglo-Saxon English Canada and the Canadiens Français du Québec. And that's exactly how the separatist pundits in our news are playing that card every times this subject is discussed in the English Canada news: look how they think they are superior/more morally right than us ! Spitting on everything WE choose collectively by ourselves !


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:56 am
 


Strutz Strutz:
It's also not unusual for a woman to wear a head scarf if they are self-conscious of hair loss, whether due to chemotherapy or another health related reason. Can you imagine the uproar if a woman was asked to remove a headscarf under these circumstances?

At one time in the recent past, a lot of (non-Muslim) women wore headscarves (some of them were used to hide hair curlers). I lived in Montreal when I was very young and saw a lot of Italian women dressed in black from head to feet, including the black veil, the mourning dress.

Kinda wondering if the law also applies to a male teacher wearing a Sikh turban.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:46 pm
 


Proculation Proculation:

It is. That's why they used the Notwithstanding clause of the constitution and also exempted that law from the Quebec Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms (much easier since it is just a bill, not a constitution).

It's quite ingenious in fact. The CAQ (Coalition Avenir Québec, majority party in Quebec and running the Government) says they have put the separation question aside, but uses that kind of "wedge politics" to try to demonstrate the "differences" between the Anglo-Saxon English Canada and the Canadiens Français du Québec. And that's exactly how the separatist pundits in our news are playing that card every times this subject is discussed in the English Canada news: look how they think they are superior/more morally right than us ! Spitting on everything WE choose collectively by ourselves !


Yeah, that's the wrong approach for commentators in the ROC to be taking. Here's André Pratte with a look at how this could play into the separatists' hands:

$1:

While the PQ is in terrible political shape, the separatist movement is not dead in Québec. A Léger poll conducted a year ago showed that a full third of Québecers would vote “Yes” in a consultation on Québec’s “souveraineté.” As Polèse writes, “Soft, elastic sovereignism ‘à la québécoise’ will surely be part of the political landscape … unless Ottawa or English Canada does something really stupid which could revive a true separatist movement.” Polèse believes that English Canada “has learned” its lesson and knows how to avoid such crises. I am not so convinced.

A constitutional crisis is exactly what separatists are counting on. In a recent column, leading intellectual Mathieu Bock-Côté argued that it is essential for the Parti Québécois to remain in existence.

“One day, in a few years, inevitably, around Bill 21 (Note: the law prohibiting the wearing of religious symbols by certain government employees), a major constitutional crisis between Ottawa and Québec will occur, a crisis that will bring back the national issue at the heart of political life.”

Bock-Côté refers to the day when the Supreme Court of Canada will rule on the legality of Bill 21. Separatists expect that the high court will rule against the law. This is certain to raise the ire of a significant majority of Quebecers, probably to the point of boosting support for separation. Some veterans of Canada’s constitutional saga even predict that Premier François Legault, who has never disowned his past separatist beliefs, will himself seize the opportunity to hold a referendum.



There might be another angle to tackle this, one that doesn't undermine the efforts of Quebecers themselves who oppose the law. Here's an interesting comment by Chris Selley:

$1:

Indeed, this week’s developments in Chelsea may well move the needle somewhat on popular opinion in Quebec: Polls have consistently shown Quebecers support measures like these far more in theory than they do when they start affecting real, live human beings. Keeping schtum might well be the best policy right now for Bill 21’s opponents in the rest of Canada.



Or how about Paul Wells?

$1:

I have also never felt that Bill 21 reveals some universal moral failing of “Quebec.” Every criticism I can level against this law has been levelled, many times, by Quebecers, including several of the Liberal MPs who ran out of patience yesterday; the Quebec Liberal and Québec Solidaire parties, which between them won more votes than Legault’s party did in 2018; an impressive selection of municipal politicians and commentators in, mostly, Montreal; and Judge Marc-André Blanchard of Quebec Superior Court, whose ruling struck down parts of Bill 21 and exclaimed his helplessness with regard to the rest: he plainly doesn’t like the thing, but Legault’s use of the constitution’s “notwithstanding” clause protects most of the law from legal challenge or judicial invalidation. Solid majorities in Quebec have supported the law in polls, but I’m not sure how long that will last, and since the law’s Charter-proofing provisions must be renewed every five years in the National Assembly, I’m not sure the law itself will last long either. I reject the notion that only Quebecers may have an opinion on the thing, because of course everyone can have an opinion on anything. But the conversation among Quebecers is plenty multifaceted already.



I personally dislike the law, especially since I think it's a solution in search of a problem. Public servants, whatever their religion, are already de facto expected to apply the secular law, curriculum or whatever rather than their own religious beliefs. That applies whether they wear a crucifix, a kirpah dagger, a hijab, or whatever. People have also found workarounds that allow them to comply with secular law while respecting their faith, like the Muslim women who don't want to remove their veils in citizenship photos but are cool with revealing their faces privately to female immigration officials beforehand.

Wouldn't it be simpler to just have a legislated clause stating that public servants are expected to do this, instead of spending all this time debating exactly what is and isn't appropriate? The secularism debate's already stumbled over problems in Quebec with some smaller town councils trying to start their meetings with a Christian prayer. The commission that discussed the idea of "reasonable accommodation" in Quebec also supported the idea of removing the crucifix in the National Assembly, which got a number of people hot under the collar.

And that might be the right angle to respond-pointing out that this arguably isn't even a problem, there have been major to-dos in Quebec itself already over secularism and Christianity, and the bill already violates something that Quebecers decided for themselves with the provincial human rights code. It's one thing to criticize their use of the federal Charter's notwithstanding clause (that's always been less of a nuclear option in Quebec than in other provinces) but why not play up the fact that they're crapping all over their own province's human rights code, which was debated and passed by the representatives of the people of Quebec without any input from other provinces or Ottawa?

This bill violates the rights Quebec itself has tried to establish for itself.

It becomes a lot harder for the bill's supporters to claim that you're an outsider telling them what to do when you point out how this violates the things they themselves have passed.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:55 pm
 


JaredMilne JaredMilne:
I personally dislike the law, especially since I think it's a solution in search of a problem.


Exactly. The point/goal of the law is not about muslim womens teaching at schools with their scarf or a sikh wearing a kirpan under a desk at a government office being urgent problems to resolve. It's about awakening the "good old" nationalism of Québécois. For some it's fear of unknowns/strangers (xenophobia), for others it's about atheism and hate of religions, for separatists it's wedge politics, etc. That's why I said it's ingenious: with a single law, you please a majority of voting people for different reasons knowing that the very few you are throwing under the bus would not have voted for you anyway. The CAQ uses the slogan "VOTRE Gouvernement" (YOUR government) in public announces/relations. Le NOUS vs EUX (us vs them).

So, when you say:

JaredMilne JaredMilne:
Wouldn't it be simpler to just have a legislated clause stating that public servants are expected to do this, instead of spending all this time debating exactly what is and isn't appropriate?


you are talking rationally while it is a political move. Nothing to do with reality.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:00 pm
 


Oh, and that political move is also about provoking English Canada to further "prove" their point.
Everytime I read in the National Post, G&M, Toronto Star opinions/comments bashing the law and how it's anti-Canadian, racist, etc. I'm saying in my head: PLEASE STOP ! You are doing EXACTLY what they want ! The trap is so huge and evident, how can they fall in it ???


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 2:17 pm
 


herbie herbie:
It's not a religious symbol, it's a scarf. To keep her hair in place. Just like Yo' Momma wore.
Controversy avoided....


Wrong. A headscarf must be worn by women in the Muslim faith, as having their hair uncovered (according to their religion) invites lust from other men. It's the same for Jewish women, except they wear wigs to cover their true head of hair and for the exact same reason.

Do some research on other cultures before you make blanket statements. I used to serve people of many different faiths during my nearly two decade career in paint and coatings working in and around Toronto, which is the most diverse city in the country.

I served Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jewish, and other denominations. Some were even nice enough to explain certain things to me when I asked because I was genuinely curious as to why some things in those cultures were the way they were.

-J.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:23 pm
 


Good to see you Proc!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:37 pm
 


Scape Scape:
Good to see you Proc!


8)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 5:36 pm
 


So YOU decide that it's not a choice. Well you can decide people who shave, cut their hair and only wear a turban for special occasions aren't Sikhs and one who only go to church for wedding, funerals and sometime Midnight Mass can't possibly be Christians too.Point was, she only had to say it was to fix her hair. Nobody's business to claim otherwise if she did.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2021 7:07 pm
 


I don't really care if it's a religious symbol or not and I'm not going to argue it. I do know know quite a few Muslims though and some of the women wear it, some not. Some only wear it in certain occasions.

There is NO religious obligation to wear the Hijab... although I'm sure that some Imams will disagree with that. But having said that, not allowing teachers to wear it in school is s dick move.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:11 pm
 




She chose her hill to die on. As to if it is worth it will be up to the people of Quebec.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2021 7:37 pm
 


Just to note...

$1:
From 1917 until 1983, the Catholic Church’s Code of Canon Law mandated that women wear veils or other head coverings. Prior to 1917, there was no such law, though wearing hats or veils was customary for women, according to Msgr. Charles Pope on the Archdiocese of Washington's website, who adds that although Church Law did not remove the hair covering mandate until 1983, many women had already chosen to forgo veils and hats at mass.

Today there are no official rules regarding women’s hair covering, and most women do not wear veils or hats to mass. Wearing such head coverings is not considered improper, but rather a choice often made by more traditional parishioners. However, when attending a Traditional Latin Mass, women often wear a veil that covers the hair, according to Msgr. Pope. This veil can be either long or short, and may cover only part of the hair.

https://classroom.synonym.com/catholic- ... 85368.html


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