[Gunnair]

I hear what you're saying, but at some point one must also call a spade a spade. This might be one of those times. Islam in itself is not necessarily incompatible with western culture, but combine it with some of the tenets of cultures that practise Islam, then we start to have a problem. Move beyond that to the unwillingness to adopt the tenets of western culture and the stubbornness to merely institute their culture then the problem is exacerbated, I watched an interview the other day regarding the Calgarians joining ISIS and the Muslim being interviewed admitted the problem and laid it all out - on the government, authorities etc, but not once did he mention the Muslim community; no attempt to take real ownership of the problem. I'm the first to point out that most of what gets thrown up here is just more of the same for the usual idiots, and it sure would be nice to see outrage on all of the other child sex rings, but on this particular topic, it ain't just another Islam is bad topic. This is a fine example of a terrible problem that the authorities need to deal with before the population takes it upon themselves.

[andyt]

It's a delicate line to walk. Absolutely we need to hold jihadists and their sympathizers to account. But if you say the problem is Islam, then you've tarred all Muslims with the same brush, and you will wind up having all Muslims as enemies. We've been to circumspect at times, at the same time some elements are far to interested in anti-Muslim jihad.

As for the pukes that enslaved these girls, that was straight criminality. Deal with it as such. We can see that people of many backgrounds do this, this isn't Islam telling these guys to do this.

And, the attitude of these pukes is well and alive in our own society. We saw it from the police in England that thought these girls wanted it, we still see it here at times when a judge opines that some girl that was abused was a willing participant and so deems the crime to be less. All rape victims get this to some degree in our society, still, even the underage ones. We're not as bad as the guys perpetrate these awful acts, but we're not as holy as we like to think either.

In Canada, but especially in England, Muslims are here to stay - many now were born here. We have to find a way to integrate them into our society, as many actually just want to do. Burying our heads to the problem won't help, Saying the problem is Islam will drive all these people to become our enemies, not a good picture if we want to maintain a civil society. Show them what our expectations are for integration, don't waver on that, but for God's sake also show them that we're willing to trust them and actually allow them to integrate instead of always having to answer for the acts of a few of their co-religionists. It's way too late to say no Muslims allowed, if we ever could. We have to come up with a better solution.

[Thanos]

Going by the endless controversy in Canada over Omar Khadr there's apparently an unending number of people who are completely unwilling to hold jihadists and terrorists to account. As of right now it as if the Khadr family, despite their long held willingness to kill and their recorded activities on the behalf of Islamic terrorism, have been successfully made by liberals into the ultimate victims, and the only real villain on the scene is the Canadian government/Stephen Harper.

What does it take for a liberal to finally see and accept what is going on out there? Do they personally have to be shot in the chest by a jihadi before they understand that there's a real and genuine evil out there that's far worse than their traditional right-wing/white male enemies?

[Gunnair]

Thanos Thanos:

What does it take for a liberal to finally see and accept what is going on out there? Do they personally have to be shot in the chest by a jihadi before they understand that there's a real and genuine evil out there that's far worse than their traditional right-wing/white male enemies?

I would hope not, because all that would do is lead to emotive reactionism that would drive the pendulum in the opposite direction. I don't think there is an easy answer save to take each Muslim at their value. The ones that refuse to abide by Canadian values - get the fuck out. The ones that flee Canada to fight for ISIS? Don't let them back in. However, I don't expect this to happen. We've become too frightened of our own Charter so that natives can run amok in Caledonia with impunity, crazy Mormons can marry children, and Quebec language police can teach Stalin some tricks (obvious hyperbole is obvious ) We've done some great things in the name of equality, but I think we've gotten to the point that we've allowed equality to include some ugly parts of ours and other's society and culture and no one, it seems, has the political parts to confront that - be they community leaders or politicians.

[Thanos]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Thanos Thanos:

What does it take for a liberal to finally see and accept what is going on out there? Do they personally have to be shot in the chest by a jihadi before they understand that there's a real and genuine evil out there that's far worse than their traditional right-wing/white male enemies?

I would hope not, because all that would do is lead to emotive reactionism that would drive the pendulum in the opposite direction. I don't think there is an easy answer save to take each Muslim at their value. The ones that refuse to abide by Canadian values - get the fuck out. The ones that flee Canada to fight for ISIS? Don't let them back in. However, I don't expect this to happen. We've become too frightened of our own Charter so that natives can run amok in Caledonia with impunity, crazy Mormons can marry children, and Quebec language police can teach Stalin some tricks (obvious hyperbole is obvious ) We've done some great things in the name of equality, but I think we've gotten to the point that we've allowed equality to include some ugly parts of ours and other's society and culture and no one, it seems, has the political parts to confront that - be they community leaders or politicians.

$1:

"There is danger that, if the court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact".

Supreme Court of the United States Justice Robert Jackson, 1949

I'm beyond the point of being bothered by accusations of racism. It matters no more than a mosquito bite, annoying but essentially meaningless. As such I'm really not scared at all to openly say that there are certain cultures, certain ideologies, and certain religious traditions that simply do not belong or deserve to live in our Western countries. That it's practically made a crime by those who fall over themselves to defend "diversity" to even say so is really their shame, not mine.

[martin14]

andyt andyt:

But if you say the problem is Islam, then you've tarred all Muslims with the same brush, and you will wind up having all Muslims as enemies. We've been to circumspect at times, at the same time some elements are far to interested in anti-Muslim jihad.

You and the DDD crew certainly have no problem tarring all Israeli/Jewish people
with that exact same brush.


Might want to try a little practising with your preaching.

[andyt]

Got a link for that?

[Zipperfish]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Thanos Thanos:

If someone as intensely normal, non-ideological, patient, intelligent, and non-bigoted as Zippy says there's a problem with the way too many Muslims are behaving in our society then the rest of you better listen. Hiding behind a failed immigration policy and accusations of racism against anyone who says there's a major problem going on here is no solution. The clear and obvious pattern in there for anyone not blind enough to see it.

I like Zippy. He's put up with my bullshit routine for years.

Agreed.

Thanks. Means a lot coming from you two. cheers.

[Thanos]

For Zippy, the representative of logic versus my agent of chaos.





(I seriously split a fucking gut from laughing when I saw that scene from the South Park: Ginger Cow episode)

[ccga3359]

andyt andyt:

But if you say the problem is Islam, then you've tarred all Muslims with the same brush, and you will wind up having all Muslims as enemies. We've been to circumspect at times, at the same time some elements are far to interested in anti-Muslim jihad.

But that is not the case is it. The problem has largely been identified and attributed to Pakistani mosle males doing this crime. Noticeably absent are middle eastern and north African moslems, either as perpetrators or clients of these sex gangs. So the problem isn't islam more so cultural and within densely packed Pakistani moslem areas.

[andyt]

Please read the forgoing discussion. It moved on well past Rotherham to being about the "problem of Islam in the West." As I say, if you make Islam the problem, instead of some adherents of of it, you will make all Muslims the enemy. In the Rotherham case, it had nothing to do with Islam, these guys weren't doing this because they thought Islam told them to, but because they were allowed to get away with it.

[ccga3359]

They didn't start it knowing they could get away with it, they continued the abuse because of it.

[andyt]

Yes. Are you saying they started because they were Muslim? Or Pakistani? We've established that even in Blighty most "groomers" (stupid name, they are pimps, or really child slavers) are neither Muslim nor Pakistani. What makes those non "Asian" groomers start? Same thing that made these guys start, not religion nor ethnicity. The diff is that these guys were given carte blanche. That's were the Pakistani Muslim bit comes in, the fact the cops were afraid to act because of who these people were.

But, what I've taken from the reports of this, it seems Britain has/had it's head up its ass to the whole problem of children being turned out to the sex trade. This scandal has at least made Britain a bit more aware of it, that it goes on, all over Britain.

As has been reported, the media in Britain is far more likely to report the ethnoreligious identity of Asians involved in crime than that of white perps. We see the same thing in Canada. Never says "white gang did such and such" but it might say "Asian gang did such and such" If it's white people, well it's just a few bad apples, we know we're not all like that. If it's non-whites, well, then we harbor the sneaking suspicion that they indeed are all like that. You can see it by our language - we don't really have an acceptable code word for white. White itself is seen as faintly racist, dividing people as to race. But we have East Asian (Chinese) South Asian (India et al) and so on. Just as the guys in Rotherham were East Asian English, when you get a gang of white English, they need a term for that. European English would be my suggestion, since it's the equivalent of East Asian English.

BTW, if Pakistanis are called Asians,. what do you call Chinese? or Malaysians or Mongolians or what have you?

[ccga3359]

You fail to see that the vast majority of thee gangs are Pakistani moslem despite numerous people proving it to be so. At those times when you do show you realize that fact you introduce world statistics in attempt to skew results to prove your point. you've been told also, numerous times that "Asian" is PC speak used by the media and authorities to avoid directly pointing to the actually ethnic and religious group of people involved in this scourge. To a Briton, we are well aware of what the group the term refers to. Be very aware that Pakistan was once part of the British Indian Empire which is part of the reason that there is a significant population in Britain. The lands further east is considered the Orient so may be referred to as Oriental if not referred to by their recognized country of origin. To make it easier for you to comprehend to a Briton every one else is referred to as "those bloody foreigners". Do try not to use local colloquialisms when discussing topics when trying to understand topics which, for you, must be a foreign language. I must admit I've had to translate English into Canadian English for my wife but it seems she has now has a good grasp of the subtle differences in language.

As I tend to not be to wrapped up in political correctness and avoiding any derisive terms, both in England and here in Canada I refer to Pakistanis, Chinese, Malaysians or Mongolians as Pakistanis, Chinese, Malays or Mongolians. It all depends on what geographic location they are from. Simples

[andyt]

I did not introduce world statistics, but stats for britain provided by he police and office of children(?) Both showed that asian men were a minority but over represented for their population. At least one of them showed the problems with record keeping in England, where ethnicity of the perps and victims was often not recorded or recorded wrongly. I don't see any stats that are solid and show that the prostitution of children is carried out mostly by Pakistani men.

I mean, say clearly, what do you think it is about Pakistani men that you think makes them almost exclusive in doing this in England, when this is a world wide phenom that involves all ethinicites and religion. But, never mind the world, even your own link of the police commissioner said that all ethnicities and religions are part of this, not as you make out almost exclusively Pakistanis. You just want to hang on to that idea, even when the very sources you provide show otherwise.

Just how Pakistani is somebody born in England?