[bootlegga]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Robair Robair:

Yea well there's a lot of rich Americans that get a lot richer the longer they stay at war.

Can't draft people or they'll revolt like they did re Vietnam.

So how do you keep the military voluntary?

Well what if the entire population is dirt poor and the military or the street are their only options? That should do it.

There are 1,001 reasons why US would never invade another democracy, NATO ally and vital trading partner.

Besides they wouldn’t need to, they would just need to wait for a conservative government or use diplomatic and trade pressure and their fifth columnists in the Canadian businesses community and conservative establishment to propagandize and lobby from within. Once the Canadian businesses elite agrees it’s in their private interest to start selling out our water to the yanks, it’s only a matter of time. Any politician who doesn’t fall in line will be declared a “radical socialist “ and “threat to the economy” who is “refusing to listen to the experts” (who are not actually experts).

The Americans drew up plans to divert massive quantities of water from the Canadian north in the 1950s and 60s, when they correctly foresaw that they didn't have anywhere near enough water for future growth in the southwest and southeast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ame ... r_Alliance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Rec ... ment_Canal

Either of those plans would cost hundreds of billions of dollars today, but given the huge economic losses in the US economy if they aren't, odds are some limited form of one or both of these will be built in the next few decades.

I doubt the Americans would invade us to secure the water, but they certainly have lots of other economic levers to use until we do.

I also agree that the Conservatives and big business wouldn't hesitate to sell our water to the USA for a second, but I'm skeptical many Canadians would support it, even if they got labelled 'socialists' by American and Conservative politicians (many of whom already call Canadians that anyways). Canadian public support has been firmly against bulk water sales since the original Free Trade Agreement back in 1988, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

[Strutz]

bootlegga bootlegga:

The Americans drew up plans to divert massive quantities of water from the Canadian north in the 1950s and 60s, when they correctly foresaw that they didn't have anywhere near enough water for future growth in the southwest and southeast.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ame ... r_Alliance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Rec ... ment_Canal

Either of those plans would cost hundreds of billions of dollars today, but given the huge economic losses in the US economy if they aren't, odds are some limited form of one or both of these will be built in the next few decades.

I doubt the Americans would invade us to secure the water, but they certainly have lots of other economic levers to use until we do.

I also agree that the Conservatives and big business wouldn't hesitate to sell our water to the USA for a second, but I'm skeptical many Canadians would support it, even if they got labelled 'socialists' by American and Conservative politicians (many of whom already call Canadians that anyways). Canadian public support has been firmly against bulk water sales since the original Free Trade Agreement back in 1988, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Wow. Thanks bootlegga for those links. That is some unreal information about those projects.

I would not be supportive of projects such as these.

[herbie]

I'm in full support of selling America water. So long as it's in 500ml bottles at $2.59 each. Or even 20.00L containers that won't fit in standard coolers for $2 each...

[DrCaleb]

herbie herbie:

I'm in full support of selling America water. So long as it's in 500ml bottles at $2.59 each. Or even 20.00L containers that won't fit in standard coolers for $2 each...

Nope. Too much plastic waste.

Let them build desalinization plants to meet their own needs.

[rickc]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

herbie herbie:

I'm in full support of selling America water. So long as it's in 500ml bottles at $2.59 each. Or even 20.00L containers that won't fit in standard coolers for $2 each...

Nope. Too much plastic waste.

Let them build desalinization plants to meet their own needs.

Exactly!!! Several countries that I have traveled to use desalinization as their sole source of drinking water. Its some of the best, most refreshing water that I have ever drank. Aruba has a cogen plant that provides electricity to the island as well as fresh water. Seeing as how sea salt is all the rage in the seasoning world these days, they can profit from the left overs from the process as well. With millions of Americans out of work, and interest rates at an all time low, there is no better time for some spending on some much needed infrastructure. Cogen plants should be at the top of the list.

[llama66]

Downside is the process can be expensive...

[DrCaleb]

llama66 llama66:

Downside is the process can be expensive...

What is the cost to the environment, farmers and regular Canadians if we run pipes south?

Like Rick says, lots of places run desalinization plants. Israel is one that does that, and also has a vast system to recycle sewage water for farming use as well.

Saves quite a bit of money.

[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

llama66 llama66:

Downside is the process can be expensive...

What is the cost to the environment, farmers and regular Canadians if we run pipes south?

Like Rick says, lots of places run desalinization plants. Israel is one that does that, and also has a vast system to recycle sewage water for farming use as well.

Saves quite a bit of money.

The problem with desalinzation plants is they use shit tons of energy, which means burning fossil fuels or nuclear power, and nuclear power is still a pariah in North America 40 years after Three Mile Island.

NAWAMPA as it stands is too big to build, because you'd have to relocate almost 200,000 people and destroy the livelihoods of hundreds of thousands more, but I could see something smaller scale being built (pipelines and pumping stations without the massive reservoirs) to pump all that excess fresh water in the Yukon and northern BC south.

The side effect is that we'd have to build some of the pieces here in Canada as a trade-off (Grand Canada Canal from Alberta to Lake Superior) to ensure our own water supplies as glaciers in the Rockies keep melting.

I don't know the solution, but maybe someday we'll re-purpose oil pipelines into water pipelines and ship 'blue gold' south instead. Either way, I can't see a future in which Canada doesn't send bulk water export south, because the US desperately needs freshwater in the SW and SE.

[Public_Domain]

[DrCaleb]

bootlegga bootlegga:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

llama66 llama66:

Downside is the process can be expensive...

What is the cost to the environment, farmers and regular Canadians if we run pipes south?

Like Rick says, lots of places run desalinization plants. Israel is one that does that, and also has a vast system to recycle sewage water for farming use as well.

Saves quite a bit of money.

The problem with desalinzation plants is they use shit tons of energy, which means burning fossil fuels or nuclear power, and nuclear power is still a pariah in North America 40 years after Three Mile Island.

Sounds like they need to quit building sub standard nuclear plants that fail, and take a page from places like France that build them better.

bootlegga bootlegga:

The side effect is that we'd have to build some of the pieces here in Canada as a trade-off (Grand Canada Canal from Alberta to Lake Superior) to ensure our own water supplies as glaciers in the Rockies keep melting.

That's our issue though. Just because we might have to pipe our water east doesn't automatically mean we have to pump it south.

bootlegga bootlegga:

I can't see a future in which Canada doesn't send bulk water export south, because the US desperately needs freshwater in the SW and SE.

I can. We just don't do it, and oppose anyone who tries. They were told what would happen when they tried to farm a desert, and now it's upon them.

Invest in infrastructure to continue it, or let that industry die.

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Robair Robair:

Well what if the entire population is dirt poor and the military or the street are their only options? That should do it.

That's why the US military has a lot of underprivileged people already. The only way out of abject poverty is service.

It worked for me.

[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

bootlegga bootlegga:

The problem with desalinzation plants is they use shit tons of energy, which means burning fossil fuels or nuclear power, and nuclear power is still a pariah in North America 40 years after Three Mile Island.

Sounds like they need to quit building sub standard nuclear plants that fail, and take a page from places like France that build them better.

NIMBYism is a pretty big issue in the US.

I agree that desalinization is the way to go, but solving the energy inputs is a first step, because renewables aren't yet reliable enough to provide the power 24/7. And desalinizaton doesn't help inland states like Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Kansas, Oklahoma, etc.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

bootlegga bootlegga:

The side effect is that we'd have to build some of the pieces here in Canada as a trade-off (Grand Canada Canal from Alberta to Lake Superior) to ensure our own water supplies as glaciers in the Rockies keep melting.

That's our issue though. Just because we might have to pipe our water east doesn't automatically mean we have to pump it south.

I don't see any Canadian government having the financial wherwithal to build such massive infrastructure, so if we do it, it would have to be with foreign assistance.

Either we'd have to privatize it and charge huge fees for its water or we'd have to do a quid pro quo with someone. The USA is probably the only country that might consider something like that.

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

bootlegga bootlegga:

I can't see a future in which Canada doesn't send bulk water export south, because the US desperately needs freshwater in the SW and SE.

I can. We just don't do it, and oppose anyone who tries. They were told what would happen when they tried to farm a desert, and now it's upon them.

Invest in infrastructure to continue it, or let that industry die.

It's not that simple - if you think any American government, Democrat or Republican, is going to stand by and let millions of Americans become refugees or watch American agricutlure and industry collapse, you're a bit naive.

I don't like to admit it, but if climate models are even slightly accurate, there will be massive upheavals in the second half of this century, and most of them will be related to food and water. And without water, you can't grow crops or raise meat animals.

At some point in the future, we will either have to sell it to them or they will take it. Water will be the oil of the 21st century whether Canadians like it or not.

[DrCaleb]

bootlegga bootlegga:

It's not that simple - if you think any American government, Democrat or Republican, is going to stand by and let millions of Americans become refugees or watch American agricutlure and industry collapse, you're a bit naive.

I'm not that naive. I don't for a second believe they will let the SW farming industry fold any more than they'll stop subsidizing the eastern farmers to produce corn or cotton.

But the options are limited when the water runs out.

bootlegga bootlegga:

I don't like to admit it, but if climate models are even slightly accurate, there will be massive upheavals in the second half of this century, and most of them will be related to food and water. And without water, you can't grow crops or raise meat animals.

At this point, with the temperatures in the arctic being decades earlier than the models, the models might be a wee bit conservative.

bootlegga bootlegga:

At some point in the future, we will either have to sell it to them or they will take it. Water will be the oil of the 21st century whether Canadians like it or not.

With luck I won't be around to witness either scenario.

[herbie]

$1:

And without water, you can't grow crops or raise meat animals.

Eat the 1%

[llama66]

NAWAPA!