[Newsbot]

Title: Poilievre's 'jail, not bail' idea may not pass constitutional muster, experts say
Category: Law & Order
Posted By: Scape
Date: 2023-05-18 18:08:59
Canadian

[Scape]

[Scape]

PP using the not withstanding clause to force the square peg in the round hole to force this rule change thru would be true to form. Why fix a problem when you can break the whole country and declare martial law?

[xerxes]

Shocking. An internet troll who speaks in sound bites doesn’t know how the constitution works.

[DrCaleb]

All of Harpers' anti-crime bills were found to be unconstitutional. I don't think PP is special, it seems all conservative leaders skipped "The Canadian Constitution" and "The Charter of Rights and Freedoms" in Social Studies class.

[herbie]

In spite of all those Crime Bills knocked out for charter violations, PP shows the true form of conservatives. They can't/wont "learn".

[Thanos]

Keep in mind that Lametti's changes have every possibility of being rejected by the high court as well, even more so if a reverse onus that makes the convicted criminal serving a sentence have to prove that they deserve bail or parole. I doubt these sorts of changes survive even their first encounter with a courtroom, not with the way the Charter is now viewed by the justices at all levels.

It's a golden age to be a criminal, including a perpetually repeating violent offender. There is no doubt any more that nearly the entire court system, especially at the Supreme Court, have opted for an interpretation of the Charter that is so radical and extremist that it's come to the point where a beyond-guilty criminal is now part of a protected class of citizen that has extra rights. The mayhem, damage, and pain the criminals cause to both the individual victims and to the overall society aren't now just a mere annoyance to the judicial class. The harm being caused by these bastards is now completely irrelevant at all to the system. Just like with everything else in this society the right of the average non-criminal person to be safe or to receive justice has been wiped out altogether. Only the rights of the freaks & maniacs to destroy whatever & whoever they want to destroy matter anymore.

[DrCaleb]

That's the flaw in the system. Innocent till proven guilty. The Russian system is far superior, in that you are guilty until the state says you are guilty. Why charge innocent people?



/s

[Thanos]

Yes, because the innocence of the already proven guilty is the most important thing of all. Every single one of us must be on our knees in awe of the rights of the obviously innocent murderer who got caught with someone else's blood drenching him from head to toe.

Do you ever get tired of this tactic? That we'll automatically slide into some version of the gulag if the proven guilty and the proven to-be-dangerous don't receive an endless number of days in court with their innocence being obvious to anyone enlightened enough to see? If that's your version of enlightenment, that the streets be covered in blood and shit up to our knees rather than have an convicted criminal show that they're not a danger to the rest of us, then I'd rather be with the barbarians. At least the older rougher form of justice never got perverted by society-killing dilettantes who were doing their very best to destroy everything in order to pursue some pathetic utopia that could never last for a single day in reality.

[DrCaleb]

I though the sarcasm tag would help. Sorry, didn't mean to piss you off.

[Thanos]

Never mind. I saw a woman get attacked outside the grocery store last night. Luckily some big guys managed to save her before the junkies did too much damage to her. That's why my tolerance level for them and their bullshit antics is at an all time low today. I'm so fucking angry right now after seeing that last night I'd Judge Dredd the entire goddamn lot of them on the fucking spot if I had the power to do so.

People who've done nothing wrong shouldn't have to put up with this shit. And I'm sick and tired of the dream world solutions telling us that we have to be tolerant of this nonsense.

[DrCaleb]

I understand. You only accuse me of views I've never uttered and positions I've never voiced when you are upset. No point in me adding to it.

I was going to use "Cardassian" in place of "Russian" there, as the quote from Garrik was "why charge an innocent man?" when the Chief was charged on Cardassia. But Russia seemed more current. But my point holds. People have the right to be held innocent until proven guilty. If they are held without bail, then proved innocent, an innocent person was jailed for no good reason. We can't be like that.

Should some assholes spend more time in jail? Absolutely. Once they are found guilty. Polivere doesn't get that. You can't hold a guy in jail for a bar fight with no bail. He'll lose everything, and no one is better off.

[Thanos]

You have a lot of radical viewpoints now that you didn't have in the past. Or ones that you didn't express in the past when CKA was more balanced and not as skewed towards the hard social revolution left the way it is now. That's why I assumed, mostly because this thread was concerned more with blasting Poilievre that it was in discussing the flaws in the bail reforms, that you were just working for the social "justice" side again.

My error. I'll try not to do it again. But Poilievre isn't the problem here. In fact on this issue he's entirely correct. The fucking hammer has to be taken out and smashed down hard on the worst of the offenders. Bail has to be taken away, period, from each and every offender who's committed any violence that caused them to be apprehended in the first place. What Poilievre is wrong about is the conservative side will choose an approach that is absolutely going to be rejected by the courts because it already has been on a hundred different occasions. That's what's wrong with these damn conservatives these days. On a critical issue they choose their usual stunt booking method, knowing full well they'll lose again. And nothing gets solved. The Liberals/NDP don't care - everything they've done since they were fully institutionally captured by social leftism decades ago has shown they don't give a damn at all about what gets destroyed or who gets hurt. And the Conservatives? Whatever. They've made themselves so damn unelectable on so many other issues, like the trucker crazies, that even the issues they're completely right about aren't enough reason to vote them in as a government.

We need at least a dozen large remand/prison facilities in this country that are capable of incarcerating at least 50000 criminals. That is the only solution. Left-wing bleating about "mass incarceration injustice" can no longer be the main priority on this. These scumbags need to be taken off the streets, period, and not allowed back out until they've been properly punished for what they've done. And if they refuse to be rehabilitated then they shouldn't be allowed out at all.

How can our so-called intelligentsia be so blind to this reality? Their demented and degenerate fantasies are getting people killed and they don't appear to care at all about it. And if the courts have already decided that bail is a Charter right no matter how hideous the crime that gets committed then every decent person remaining in this country has already lost.

[Scape]

With respect I disagree with going full tilt enabling act on criminals. The judiciary already has the tools required to deal with criminals, we just need to invest in a more robust judiciary so that people are not stuck in the courts on endless appeals for years at a time.

It's the backlog that causes the streets to be flooded with repeat offenders because the small fry is not worth the time when there are bigger fish in the queue. Get more judges, not more jails.

[DrCaleb]

Thanos Thanos:

You have a lot of radical viewpoints now that you didn't have in the past. Or ones that you didn't express in the past when CKA was more balanced and not as skewed towards the hard social revolution left the way it is now. That's why I assumed, mostly because this thread was concerned more with blasting Poilievre that it was in discussing the flaws in the bail reforms, that you were just working for the social "justice" side again.

I don't think that my views have really changed. Certainly not 'radical'. I know some of my views have changed, such as on same sex marriage. I have grown more accepting on my old age. I suppose that is my libertarian side. I don't have any business in other peoples happiness. I also don't see equality as a 'side'. That's sort of the point. We are equal, or we aren't.

I will totally blast PP if he thinks we aren't all equal, with certain rights, including the presumption of innocence.

Scape Scape:

With respect I disagree with going full tilt enabling act on criminals. The judiciary already has the tools required to deal with criminals, we just need to invest in a more robust judiciary so that people are not stuck in the courts on endless appeals for years at a time.

It's the backlog that causes the streets to be flooded with repeat offenders because the small fry is not worth the time when there are bigger fish in the queue. Get more judges, not more jails.

Exactly. The cuts to the legal system, cuts to legal aid, and insane rates for lawyers means people are no longer guaranteed a right to a fair trial. People plead guilty to things they didn't do, just so they can go home sooner. Its reprehensible.

And with the SCoC decision that trial should be swift, too many cases that should be tried end up being dismissed and the guilty go unpunished. And rightly so. Justice must be swift, and fair.