[Thanos]

I think he's speaking in Cliff Clavin-ese.

[Vamp018]

Thanos Thanos:

I think he's speaking in Cliff Clavin-ese.

Cheers

[BeaverFever]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

2 million kids have parents.

Those parents need to work.

When strikes like this happen, childcare is very hard, if not impossible to find. I've been through it multiple times.

Parents end up having to take days off.

Gosh, what do they do in the summer time?

And, where are your numbers?

[Zipperfish]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

2 million kids have parents.

Those parents need to work.

When strikes like this happen, childcare is very hard, if not impossible to find. I've been through it multiple times.

Parents end up having to take days off.

We can't take days off. You can take days off if you are sick. You can take days off if your kid is sick, in my job. If you take days off for the school strike it comes out of your vacation.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

So unprepared.

Teachers don't require a masters degree. While a masters does move you higher on the grid, it's not required. I have 4 friends who are teachers. 2 in high school, 2 in elementary. Neither of them have a masters degree.

The fact is, those who have one are underpaid compared to private sector. And second, even those who don't have a masters have 2 undergraddegrees because you have to have an undergraduate degree before you join teacher's college (which was just increased from one year to 2 year).

$1:

Wow, good for them! It doesn't make them special. It doesn't make them any more special than the men and women all over Ontario volunteering their time for sports and clubs outside of their workplace. I spent close to 300 hours last year coaching hockey which took me all over the Province.

OH come on, you can't even compare the two.

1) Extra curriculars like sports and choir etc have always been intended as an integral part of the school system. You can pretend that it's just a fringe benefit but we all know it's not. Schools have always been expected to provide sports and clubs after hours and teachers have always been expected to run them for free.

2) Nobody is going to protest if you don't volunteer for your pet charities - it's not expected or demanded of you. By contrast, parents go ape when teachers 'work to rule' and stop volunteering outside of their mandatory hours. Can you imagine if no school in Ontario ever had a sports team or club ever again becaue t? You would not be indifferent.

3) The amount of hours teachers spend doing this stuff pretty much dwarfs anything most people do. And then they still have to go home and do marking.

$1:

The only people that suffer are the kids

The teachers not getting paid suffer, as you pointed out in one of the very first posts.

[Zipperfish]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

The public service shouldn't be allowed to unionize, or at least not be allowed to strike.
Let's get one thing straight first. The govt is not their boss, WE are.

The public servants work for the Minister. The Minister works for the government. That's a critical distinction. Depending on your perspective of the current government, they do or don't work for you. They work for you to the extent that you get to vote in a new one every four or five years.

$1:

Unlike a private sector strike, public sector strikes hold the taxpayer hostage. And before BF comes in with his usual response about public sector employees are taxpayers too, let's just straighten that out. Public sector salaries wouldn't exist without the tax base from the private sector.

What would be the state of the private sector without the public sector? No schools, no police, no hospitals, no military, no borders. You need to think these things through.

[andyt]

Of course we need a public sector. But striking doesn't make sense for it, because the usual forces in the private industry don't apply. The govt won't go broke (in the short term) giving in to the workers demands, otoh, the govt actually saves money during a strike, so they can hold out as long as public opinion isn't too harsh.

Public workers should not be allowed to strike. But only if a mechanism is in place that makes sure they receive fair compensation. Neither govt nor the unions have ever shown interest in arbitration - both figure they'll do better with the current model. Maybe they should be paid according to GDP or a similar indicator. That way the govt can't set taxes way low and claim they can't afford to pay a decent wage, nor can the union hold them hostage during hard economic times.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

The fact is, those who have one are underpaid compared to private sector. And second, even those who don't have a masters have 2 undergraddegrees because you have to have an undergraduate degree before you join teacher's college (which was just increased from one year to 2 year).

If that is the case, teachers made the choice to get into a profession with the salary grid public for full disclosure.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

OH come on, you can't even compare the two.

Exactly. Those that volunteer their time outside of their workplace do far more.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

1) Extra curriculars like sports and choir etc have always been intended as an integral part of the school system. You can pretend that it's just a fringe benefit but we all know it's not. Schools have always been expected to provide sports and clubs after hours and teachers have always been expected to run them for free.

If it's a sticking point, put it in the contract. That will save all of the "Look at us, we're awesome cause we volunteer our time". and holding out on the kids when you don't get your way.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

2) Nobody is going to protest if you don't volunteer for your pet charities - it's not expected or demanded of you. By contrast, parents go ape when teachers 'work to rule' and stop volunteering outside of their mandatory hours. Can you imagine if no school in Ontario ever had a sports team or club ever again becaue t? You would not be indifferent.

Clearly you have little to no understanding of the amount of things that take place in this Province due to volunteers.

Imagine the outlook of this Province if everyone stopped volunteering. No more hockey, baseball, soccer...no more community organizations.

No sports in school would be fine. Let the volunteers like me, who actually like doing it, handle the job and do it far better.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

3) The amount of hours teachers spend doing this stuff pretty much dwarfs anything most people do. And then they still have to go home and do marking.

That's laughable! Coaching a house league baseball team requires 3 coaches and about 5 hours a week. That's just one team, one sport. House league.

From October to March, I'm in an arena almost 10 hours a week and there's 5 of us on a coaching staff.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

The teachers not getting paid suffer, as you pointed out in one of the very first posts.

The difference is, they made the choice to suffer. The kids didn't.

[OnTheIce]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Gosh, what do they do in the summer time?

And, where are your numbers?

They have time to plan and make arrangements for summer. Parents take alternate weeks off and take mutual vacations. When you have a couple days notice, it's chaos.

2,015,411 total students in Ontario.

https://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/educationFacts.html

I'm sure your tune will change once your little one enters the system.

[BeaverFever]

Government still feels the pressure and get blame for mismanagement when workers strike.

Look at David Miller and the Toronto strike a few years back. The same people who screamed that he should drain every last drop of blood from the Union blamed him for the strike the inevitably resulted. Meanwhile, people who were pro-Union obviously turned on him as well.

There should be better ways of dealing with grievances instead of striking, but unfortunately as you say the stakeholders believe they benefit more from the current arrangement.

[Lemmy]

OTI OTI:

While a masters does move you higher on the grid, it's not required

Wrong. A graduate degree gets you a "graduate allowance", which is about $1600/yr for most boards in Ontario. It doesn't move you anywhere on the grid.

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

The fact is, those who have one are underpaid compared to private sector. And second, even those who don't have a masters have 2 undergrad degrees because you have to have an undergraduate degree before you join teacher's college (which was just increased from one year to 2 year).

That's the big issue. You want good people to go into teaching, you have to pay them. If you don't, you get shit people. You get what you pay for.

And 2 year teacher education programs start next fall. What will that do? Draw more stupid rich people into the profession at the expense of quality candidates. YAY!

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

I'm sure your tune will change once your little one enters the system.

You mean he'll suddenly view teachers' worth as daycare service, like you do?

[Zipperfish]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

[
I'm sure your tune will change once your little one enters the system.

Didn't change my mind. I still support collective bargaining.

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

You mean he'll suddenly view teachers' worth as daycare service, like you do?

I don't care about the daycare aspect of teaching. My wife owns a daycare, childcare would be free to us.

What I care about is teachers using me and my children as pawns.

[Lemmy]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

What I care about is teachers using me and my children as pawns.

Pawns? How so?

[OnTheIce]

Lemmy Lemmy:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

What I care about is teachers using me and my children as pawns.

Pawns? How so?

I'm not going through this circle jerk with you again. You know exactly what I'm referring to and you'll back the teachers to the wall.

Waste of time.