[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Not you personally but the west none-the-less. We deal with radical islam by getting the hell out of their lands and minding our own business. We leave them to whatever society they decide to run and the extent of our dealings with them should be on a strict customer-supplier basis. We sell them what we want to sell them and buy from them what we want to buy and that all.

That more then anything will take all the wind out of the radicals since they won't be able to rally around "its a war on islam".

Oil running out? Too bad so sad guys. Learn to bake really tasty cookies and we'll buy them from you.

What interference in Saudi Arabia did we do to get 14 Saudi's to hijack airliners and fly them into buildings in the US, killing thousands of innocent Americans?[/quote]

First off that little bit of 9/11 justification for anything we do to muslims anywhere is just plain wrong. We helped the very same muslim radicals against the soviets. If the USSR launched a first strike against us then would you have said "well, we got what we deserved".

Second, it was bloody well used to attack Iraq, a country with less ties to the 9/11 hijackers then the US itself. Does that also justify Iraqis if they decide to attack the US since they were innocent?

Third, the middle east is nothing but western interference going back to the Brits over 100 years ago. This is hard history. Hell the colonial Brits drew up nation borders and set a lot of shit in motion. Even the whole Iran vs the US thing can be traced back to US attempts to meddle politically.

The US has reaped what it sowed and should consider itself damn lucky there is no true cooperation among the gulf nations or else they would be up the paddle without a creek.

That's an entirely new debate though.

Wars, banning, and attempts to enforce our morality have failed, are failing, and will always fail. What progress we do see comes entirely from their own citizenry deciding for themselves and all to often its because of media coverage. Giving them the space and freedom to grow as they see fit will not only remove us from their gun sights so to speak but be the moral thing to do. In the end they will achieve a peaceful society of their own accord and if they don't then their own people won't have the west to blame and will instead look for other reasons such as their religion and strict adherence to it.

We can simply sit back, enjoy our freedoms and a beer and offer only what help they ask for and what help we are willing to give while we strive to make our nations better for the people that live here and the planet as a whole.

[jason700]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Its also the dress of our biggest ally in the muslim world. Banning it just confirms what the muslim fundies say about us and makes their cause stronger as the peaceful muslims who do believe in the burkha as much as all the other religious folk and their religious apparel get pushed towards fundie radicalism.

DerbyX DerbyX:

What you think of how they treat their women means as much to them as what they think about our society means to you.

Kind of contradicting yourself here, aren't you Derbs?

On the one hand you're saying that if we ban burkhas in protest of how they treat their women, they won't care. But on the other hand you're saying that if we ban the burkha IN OUR COUNTRY it will push them towards fundie radicalism.

[DerbyX]

jason700 jason700:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Its also the dress of our biggest ally in the muslim world. Banning it just confirms what the muslim fundies say about us and makes their cause stronger as the peaceful muslims who do believe in the burkha as much as all the other religious folk and their religious apparel get pushed towards fundie radicalism.

DerbyX DerbyX:

What you think of how they treat their women means as much to them as what they think about our society means to you.

Kind of contradicting yourself here, aren't you Derbs?

On the one hand you're saying that if we ban burkhas in protest of how they treat their women, they won't care. But on the other hand you're saying that if we ban the burkha IN OUR COUNTRY it will push them towards fundie radicalism.

Not at all. I just want to point out that its been our staunchest ally in the region guilty of the things we say entitle us to attack other nations. I also said "think". They don't care that you think its oppressive any more then you care that they think our decadent society is sinful.

Just because a majority of burkha supporting people are peaceful doesn't mean that banning it won't become a casus belli for others with an agenda. Hell even people who knew full well Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 had no problem using it as justification.

[jason700]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Not at all. I just want to point out that its been our staunchest ally in the region guilty of the things we say entitle us to attack other nations. I also said "think". They don't care that you think its oppressive any more then you care that they think our decadent society is sinful.

Just because a majority of burkha supporting people are peaceful doesn't mean that banning it won't become a casus belli for others with an agenda. Hell even people who knew full well Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 had no problem using it as justification.

I'm only talking about banning it in our country. I agree with you that we should otherwise leave them to their own devices. I don't see it as a slippery slope where the next thing will be us proposing a worldwide ban or attack countries where the women wear burkhas.

[kenmore]

ASLplease ASLplease:

there was a time when the majority of canadian women felt that the wife's place was in the kitchen.

I think you mean Canadian men that the wife's place was in the kitchen.[/quote]W

Women have been fighting for equality for decades. North America has moved eons ahead with this issue and the middle east needs to move into the Millenium!

[DerbyX]

jason700 jason700:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Not at all. I just want to point out that its been our staunchest ally in the region guilty of the things we say entitle us to attack other nations. I also said "think". They don't care that you think its oppressive any more then you care that they think our decadent society is sinful.

Just because a majority of burkha supporting people are peaceful doesn't mean that banning it won't become a casus belli for others with an agenda. Hell even people who knew full well Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 had no problem using it as justification.

I'm only talking about banning it in our country. I agree with you that we should otherwise leave them to their own devices. I don't see it as a slippery slope where the next thing will be us proposing a worldwide ban or attack countries where the women wear burkhas.

Except that it still impacts our freedom and how we view our freedoms. All religious apparel can be considered oppressive in its own right regardless of the peaceful nature of those who wear them.

Does their god really care what they wear? I realize that nobody here is claiming headscarves are in the same category but I'd guess they are next as the same people we prevent from wearing burkhas would move on to them with nary an impact of their viewpoints.

[ASLplease]

kenmore kenmore:

ASLplease ASLplease:

there was a time when the majority of canadian women felt that the wife's place was in the kitchen.

I think you mean Canadian men that the wife's place was in the kitchen.

W

Women have been fighting for equality for decades. North America has moved eons ahead with this issue and the middle east needs to move into the Millenium![/quote]

there were also many women that supported their husbands, just like they do with the burkas.

[jason700]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Except that it still impacts our freedom and how we view our freedoms.

As it should. As someone else pointed out, we don't allow people to run around in a KKK outfit as it's a symbol of intolerance and oppression. The burkha is a symbol of oppression toward women.

DerbyX DerbyX:

All religious apparel can be considered oppressive in its own right regardless of the peaceful nature of those who wear them.

Does their god really care what they wear? I realize that nobody here is claiming headscarves are in the same category but I'd guess they are next as the same people we prevent from wearing burkhas would move on to them with nary an impact of their viewpoints.

Yes... in fact I'm not a fan of Penecostal women having to wear long skirts and dresses and keeping their hair long either. But the burkha is an extreme case. I doubt anyone will propose a ban on headscarves.

[DerbyX]

jason700 jason700:

As it should. As someone else pointed out, we don't allow people to run around in a KKK outfit as it's a symbol of intolerance and oppression. The burkha is a symbol of oppression toward women.

We don't? Is it against the law is it? Just because you see the burkha as a symbol of oppression doesn't mean it is or that those who wear it do. I think religion itself is oppressive to humans in general but that doesn't give me the right to ban its trappings does it? Feel free not to wear a burkha all you want but you should allow those that want to, to be allowed.

DerbyX DerbyX:

All religious apparel can be considered oppressive in its own right regardless of the peaceful nature of those who wear them.

jason700 jason700:

Yes... in fact I'm not a fan of Penecostal women having to wear long skirts and dresses and keeping their hair long either. But the burkha is an extreme case. I doubt anyone will propose a ban on headscarves.

That's next on this list.

[leewgrant]

kenmore kenmore:

ASLplease ASLplease:

there was a time when the majority of canadian women felt that the wife's place was in the kitchen.

I think you mean Canadian men that the wife's place was in the kitchen.

Women have been fighting for equality for decades. North America has moved eons ahead with this issue and the middle east needs to move into the Millenium!

Given the social status of women in many Muslim households if the burka were banned women would not be allowed to leave the house.

[Patish]

OK. Burka is sign of radical islam.
Egypt and Jordan aren't radical countries.
Many women in these countries can wear what they want.
When I've said "radical" I meant Afghanistan, Pakistan,Sudan,Somali etc. Definitely it's not our place say them what to do. I don't think that war in Afghanistan is good idea.

Caucasian family has approx. 1.5 child. Muslim has 3-4. Are you sure, that all Canadian muslims loyal to their country ? They only have to make kids and don't let them assimilate. They live in their own communities and you have no clue what's going on inside. Probably, in 90-100 years they will majority. Then, they will say to your kids what wearing. Do you want a proof ? Look at Europe. You can look at Israel too.
I really hope that I wrong.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

Caucasian family has approx. 1.5 child. Muslim has 3-4.

Just a sticky detail: most of those countries don't have 1/10th as good a child mortality rate as the West. So popping out puppies is one thing -- seeing them reach their 18th birthday is another.

[ASLplease]

in some countries, having lots of children is called planning for your retirement.

[EyeBrock]

DerbyX DerbyX:

jason700 jason700:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Its also the dress of our biggest ally in the muslim world. Banning it just confirms what the muslim fundies say about us and makes their cause stronger as the peaceful muslims who do believe in the burkha as much as all the other religious folk and their religious apparel get pushed towards fundie radicalism.

DerbyX DerbyX:

What you think of how they treat their women means as much to them as what they think about our society means to you.

Kind of contradicting yourself here, aren't you Derbs?

On the one hand you're saying that if we ban burkhas in protest of how they treat their women, they won't care. But on the other hand you're saying that if we ban the burkha IN OUR COUNTRY it will push them towards fundie radicalism.

Not at all. I just want to point out that its been our staunchest ally in the region guilty of the things we say entitle us to attack other nations. I also said "think". They don't care that you think its oppressive any more then you care that they think our decadent society is sinful.

Just because a majority of burkha supporting people are peaceful doesn't mean that banning it won't become a casus belli for others with an agenda. Hell even people who knew full well Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 had no problem using it as justification.

Our 'staunchest ally' has been undermining us and funding terrorism in the guise of whabbism for decades.

[DerbyX]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Our 'staunchest ally' has been undermining us and funding terrorism in the guise of whabbism for decades.

Yep. No argument here. I think you are misunderstanding my argument. Mine is pointing out the hypocrisy about condemning/attacking other countries allegedly based on their policies when we ignore those very same polices in countries that are our "allies".

Its what destroys our credibility when we sabre rattle over, say Malaysia and their caning while turning a blind eye to others. We might justify it but to every body else in the region they see it for what it is. Its not whats being done but whos doing it which is why we have zero credibility in fighting the Taliban on moral grounds when we tolerate the behaviour in others.

That's why I say lets amscray from their lands and focus on our own.