[OnTheIce]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Peronally I care not what the 'right-wing Yanks' say or do but I'm hazarding a guess that the US would tighten it's border beyond reasonable belief, causing real issues for exports etc.

Anything like this has effects other than the obvious. Strategic thinking is required here.

Exactly.

So all this talk about domestic policy has no affect on International relations is complete garbage.

And to think this will curb gang activity? That's laughable.

[OnTheIce]

Curtman Curtman:

The reason for the rush and why you should care is because of the people making money in the black market, and the money you and I spend on enforcing prohibition without any success whatsoever.

I still don't care.

I don't smoke, drink or use drugs and frankly, I find alcohol to be an utter pain in the ass. I don't see the need to get intoxicated or why we feel the need to legalize the right for someone to get high on certain drugs.

When you legalize it, you're opening the doors to many more financial problems, some which would probably cost more than we spend now on enforcement.

Further, if the Government gets involved, they'll tax the shit out of it and you'll still have the gangs and OC selling as it'll be cheaper to buy it on the street corner.

[Macguyver]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

Peronally I care not what the 'right-wing Yanks' say or do but I'm hazarding a guess that the US would tighten it's border beyond reasonable belief, causing real issues for exports etc.

Anything like this has effects other than the obvious. Strategic thinking is required here.

Exactly.

So all this talk about domestic policy has no affect on International relations is complete garbage.

And to think this will curb gang activity? That's laughable.

I guess you missed the chapter on Prohibition - do some research and check out the violence and gang activity associated with that. Same thing. We still have gangsters but they now feed off other things, and one of the biggest of them is pot. If every grandma and collage kid can grow whatever they want , if I can legally grow 100 plants in my shop, well then the gangsters have to find other forms of currency.

Ya, they still have their other drugs and hookers and whatever, but pot is a huge part of the underground system.

Saying that legalizing pot is not going to take a bite out of organized crime is like saying the violence during the American prohibition had nothing to do with alcohol.



This is 47 pounds of pot seized in Brandon. Assuming they pay close to what I pay (probably more) and there are 16 oz in a pound 47x16*$200= $150,000.00


Here is a "fake" UPS truck with 2118 Lbs of weed in it. $6,777,600.00 is the haul if you got this in your basement and you can sell it for $200 an OZ.

Of course that would take some serious dedication to unpack, weigh, repack and sell.

For EXAMPLE ONLY: So what happens is the bulk growers sell to a bulk buyer who pays guys to transport it. They will transport it somewhere where a half dozen guys will spit it up and transport it to 5 guys each. (so far 38 people involved) and each of those 30 guys will have 12 guys who will split that up. (398 people involved) Those 360 guys will get 5-10 pounds each and sell it on a street level to 20-40 customers each. (7200 - 14,200) .

At 7200 end users the average spend is around $100 per customer. That sounds right to me because although I buy by the OZ at a time usually, 1/8ths ($40 ish) and 1/4rs ($60-$80 ish)are very common transaction units .

So you have around 400 people involved in this operation, plus probably 7000+ end users. This is a simple explanation, everyone probably operates differently. There guys transporting buy the dozens of pounds have ALOT TO LOSE. Especially if they got caught a time or two already.

Now explain to me how legalizing pot DOES NOT CURB organized crime and gang activity. Just for this supplier alone you got 400 people organized to distribute a shipment. If it is legal, either these guys go legit or we grow it ourselves and you cut 400 people out of the loop.

[Macguyver]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curtman Curtman:

The reason for the rush and why you should care is because of the people making money in the black market, and the money you and I spend on enforcing prohibition without any success whatsoever.

I still don't care.

I don't smoke, drink or use drugs and frankly, I find alcohol to be an utter pain in the ass. I don't see the need to get intoxicated or why we feel the need to legalize the right for someone to get high on certain drugs.

When you legalize it, you're opening the doors to many more financial problems, some which would probably cost more than we spend now on enforcement.

Further, if the Government gets involved, they'll tax the shit out of it and you'll still have the gangs and OC selling as it'll be cheaper to buy it on the street corner.

Well then butt out. If you don't smoke or drink that is your choice. Quit telling me how to live my life. I'm a productive member of my community and I chose to have a toke in the evening to relax with a beer or a glass of wine or a crown and diet coke.

You are grasping at straws "financial problems" and "over taxation" that is a bunch of crap. I would pay the same or more if it were legal anyways. I'd rather see the money I spend go to the government then to the HA or other bad guys. But I'm not stopping because you feel some sort of moral superiority because you chose to abstain. I love my life people who know me wish they had my life so what more can I say?

Life is worth living, you should try it sometime.

[peck420]

I am honestly having a hard time caring what the US would do in the scenario of Canada legalizing, but it might have something to do with how little US policy makers think of Canada in their decisions...so I might be jaded.

As for limiting gang activity, it probably wouldn't, but it would limit gang financing...by a considerable amount. And that is something to seriously consider.

For reference on the scope of financing I highly recommend CannaBiz by CBC. Very informative.

OTI, as economy is a major concern of Canadians, think of the extra revenues that would be generated by legalization and taxation. Now add in the amount of money saved by the reduced policing required and the reduced incarcerations.

To me, it sounds like it is very much in line with the major Canadian concern.

[OnTheIce]

Macguyver Macguyver:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Curtman Curtman:

The reason for the rush and why you should care is because of the people making money in the black market, and the money you and I spend on enforcing prohibition without any success whatsoever.

I still don't care.

I don't smoke, drink or use drugs and frankly, I find alcohol to be an utter pain in the ass. I don't see the need to get intoxicated or why we feel the need to legalize the right for someone to get high on certain drugs.

When you legalize it, you're opening the doors to many more financial problems, some which would probably cost more than we spend now on enforcement.

Further, if the Government gets involved, they'll tax the shit out of it and you'll still have the gangs and OC selling as it'll be cheaper to buy it on the street corner.

Well then butt out. If you don't smoke or drink that is your choice. Quit telling me how to live my life. I'm a productive member of my community and I chose to have a toke in the evening to relax with a beer or a glass of wine or a crown and diet coke.

You are grasping at straws "financial problems" and "over taxation" that is a bunch of crap. I would pay the same or more if it were legal anyways. I'd rather see the money I spend go to the government then to the HA or other bad guys. But I'm not stopping because you feel some sort of moral superiority because you chose to abstain. I love my life people who know me wish they had my life so what more can I say?

Life is worth living, you should try it sometime.

My life is just great, thanks. I don't need substances to make me intoxicated to have a good life, but if that's your thing, all the power to ya. I don't expect you to stop and I don't care what you do in your home.

In the end, you guys act like you want to do a service to your Country. Like you care if the government makes more taxes or saves money or helps curb organized crime. Give me a break.

You want it to be easier to score some weed. Period.

[Macguyver]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

You want it to be easier to score some weed. Period.

Absolutely.

Why should I be treated like a criminal for undertaking an activity that is less harmful than drinking or smoking?

I enjoy it, and there is no better cure for insomnia, trust me I've tried everything else.

I'd rather catch my children smoking pot than stealing my booze. You never hear of people OD on pot, you never see pot heads racing cars or fighting in the streets.

As a matter of fact, I cannot find one reference online to someone overdosing from smoking weed anywhere in the world.

And I do care about the financial costs to the country. I don't see how being a user and advocating for legalization excludes me from being a tax payer and being interested in where my tax dollars go.

Just because you don't smoke weed don't pretend that your viewpoints are any more valid than mine. That is pretentious crap, get over yourself. You're a good candidate for some relaxation therapy. Try it then report back.

If not shut up and fuck off because you have no clue what you are talking about.

[OnTheIce]

Macguyver Macguyver:

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

You want it to be easier to score some weed. Period.

Absolutely.

Why should I be treated like a criminal for undertaking an activity that is less harmful than drinking or smoking?

I enjoy it, and there is no better cure for insomnia, trust me I've tried everything else.

I'd rather catch my children smoking pot than stealing my booze. You never hear of people OD on pot, you never see pot heads racing cars or fighting in the streets.

As a matter of fact, I cannot find one reference online to someone overdosing from smoking weed anywhere in the world.

And I do care about the financial costs to the country. I don't see how being a user and advocating for legalization excludes me from being a tax payer and being interested in where my tax dollars go.

Just because you don't smoke weed don't pretend that your viewpoints are any more valid than mine. That is pretentious crap, get over yourself. You're a good candidate for some relaxation therapy. Try it then report back.

If not shut up and fuck off because you have no clue what you are talking about.

Holy hostility! I thought you were the calm one?

I'm not pretending that my viewpoints are any more valid than yours. You're more than welcome to do whatever you want, just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I view my stance as more important than yours. It's just different.

Now go smoke and calm down.

[herbie]

Different? Heard the same approach from Nixon in the 70s. Completely against the findings of Presidential Commission, Royal Commissions, medical policy, community advice.
Health issue, not a legal issue. And you could grow in your window planter if you wanted. We have the tobacco industry (which is far more harmful) as an example of how not to regulate criminal industry into legal criminal corporate lobbyists.

[andyt]

Man, those coalition people must just be a bunch of dope smoking hippy dreamers who obviously haven't considered the brilliant arguments made by the eminent anti-legalization thinkers on this forum. I mean what do a retired Supreme Court Justice and former RCMP Chief Superintendent, among others, know?

$1:

Letter From Former Mayors

...Marijuana prohibition is – without question – a failed policy. It is creating violent, gang-related crime in our communities and fear among our citizens, and adding financial costs for all levels of government at a time when we can least afford them....

We agree with the Stop the Violence BC coalition and the criminologists, economists, lawyers, law enforcement and public health experts under its umbrella: we must move from a violent unregulated market to a strictly regulated cannabis market that is based on a public health framework. We believe a legally regulated market for adult cannabis use has the potential to reduce rates of cannabis use while at the same time directly addressing organized crime concerns by starving them of this cash cow. A regulated market would enable governments to improve community health and safety while at the same time raising millions in tax revenue.

Coalition listing

Coalition listing
John Anderson, PhD
Former Correctional Officer, Nanaimo
Chair, Criminology Dept., Vancouver Island University
Vice President, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (Canada)

Terri Betts, BScPharm, ACPR
Clinical Coordinator, Pharmacy, Lions Gate Hospital

Neil Boyd, LLM
Professor & Associate Director, School of Criminology, SFU

David Bratzer
Police Officer
Board of Directors, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

Jane Buxton, MBBS, MRCGP, MHSc, FRCPC
Associate Professor, School of Population and Public Health, UBC

Vince Cain
Retired RCMP Chief Superintendent
Former BC Chief Coroner

John Carsley, MD, MSc, FRCPC
Medical Health Officer, Member of Health Officers’ Council of BC

John Conroy, QC
Barrister & Solicitor, Conroy & Co.
President, NORML Canada

Neil Chantler
Barrister & Solicitor, A. Cameron Ward & Company Barristers and Solicitors

Caroline Ferris, MD, CCFP, FCFP
Physician, Creekside Withdrawal Management Centre
Clinical Instructor, Dept. of Family Practice, UBC
Clinical Faculty Team, Dept. of Family Practice Residency Program, UBC

Christian Fibiger, PhD
Chief Scientific Officer, MedGenesis Therapeutics

Benedikt Fischer, PhD
Professor & CIHR/PHAC Applied Public Health Chair, Faculty of Health Sciences, SFU
Director, Centre for Applied Research in Mental Health and Addiction

Jennifer Godwin-Ellis, BAH, LL.B
Lawyer

Mark Haden, MSW
Adjunct Professor, School of Nursing, UBC

Paul Hasselback, MD, MSc, FRCPC
Medical Health Officer, Member of Health Officers’ Council of BC
Clinical Associate Professor, School of Population and Public Health, UBC

Jacob Hunter
Policy Director, Beyond Prohibition Foundation

David Kennedy, M.D., FCCFP
Retired Physician

Thomas Kerr, PhD
Director, Urban Health Research Initiative, BC Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS
Associate Professor, Dept. of Medicine, UBC

Douglas C. King, LLB
Lawyer, Pivot Legal Society

Ross Lander
Retired Justice, BC Supreme Court

Josée Lavoie, PhD
Associate Professor, School of Health Sciences, UNBC
Assistant Professor, Dept. of Community Health Sciences, University of Manitoba
Research Affiliate, Manitoba First Nations Centre for Aboriginal Health Research

Randie Long
Former Federal Prosecutor (Nanaimo)

Donald MacPherson
Adjunct Professor, Faculty of Health Sciences, SFU
Director, Canadian Drug Policy Coalition

Richard Mathias, MHSc, MD, FRCPC
Professor and Public Health Program Head, School of Population and Public Health, UBC

Walter McKay
Former Police Officer
Consultant, WM Consulting
Director of International Affairs and Founder, Asociación Mexicana de Reducción de Riesgos y Daños

Julio Montaner, MD, FRCPC, FCCP, FACP, FRSC
Director, BC Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS
Immediate Past President, International AIDS Society

Bohdan Noysk, PhD
Health Economist, BC Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS

Eugenia Oviedo-Joekes, PhD
Assistant Professor, School of Population and Public Health, UBC
Research Scientist, Centre for Health Evaluation and Outcome Services, Providence Health Care

Heather Peters, MSW
Associate Professor, Social Work, UNBC

Katrina Pacey, LLB
Partner, Ethos Law
Litigation Director, Pivot Legal Society

Dan Reist
Assistant Director, Knowledge Exchange, Centre for Addictions Research BC

Chris Richardson, PhD
Assistant Professor & Michael Smith Foundation Scholar, School of Population and Public Health, UBC
Research Scientist, Centre for Health Evaluation and Outcome Services, Providence Health Care

Jean Shoveller, PhD
Professor & CIHR/PHAC Applied Public Health Chair, School of Population & Public Health, UBC
Senior Scholar, Michael Smith Foundation for Health Research

Timothy Temple, MBBS, CCFP, FRSA
Physician, Dept. of Family Practice, UBC

Kirk Tousaw, JD, LLM
Barrister, Law Office of Kirk Tousaw
Executive Director, Beyond Prohibition

Franklin White, MD, CM, MSc, FRCPC, FFPH
President, Pacific Health & Development Sciences Inc.

Evan Wood, MD, PhD, ABIM, FRCPC
Director, Urban Health Research Initiative, BC Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS
Professor, Dept. of Medicine, UBC

Cornelia Zeisser, PhD
Postdoctoral Fellow, Centre for Addictions Research BC

[OnTheIce]

andyt andyt:

Man, those coalition people must just be a bunch of dope smoking hippy dreamers who obviously haven't considered the brilliant arguments made by the eminent anti-legalization thinkers on this forum. I mean what do a retired Supreme Court Justice and former RCMP Chief Superintendent, among others, know?

$1:

Letter From Former Mayors

...Marijuana prohibition is – without question – a failed policy. It is creating violent, gang-related crime in our communities and fear among our citizens, and adding financial costs for all levels of government at a time when we can least afford them....

We agree with the Stop the Violence BC coalition and the criminologists, economists, lawyers, law enforcement and public health experts under its umbrella: we must move from a violent unregulated market to a strictly regulated cannabis market that is based on a public health framework. We believe a legally regulated market for adult cannabis use has the potential to reduce rates of cannabis use while at the same time directly addressing organized crime concerns by starving them of this cash cow. A regulated market would enable governments to improve community health and safety while at the same time raising millions in tax revenue.

Coalition listing

Coalition listing
John Anderson, PhD
Former Correctional Officer, Nanaimo
Chair, Criminology Dept., Vancouver Island University
Vice President, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (Canada)

Terri Betts, BScPharm, ACPR
Clinical Coordinator, Pharmacy, Lions Gate Hospital

Neil Boyd, LLM
Professor & Associate Director, School of Criminology, SFU

David Bratzer
Police Officer
Board of Directors, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

Jane Buxton, MBBS, MRCGP, MHSc, FRCPC
Associate Professor, School of Population and Public Health, UBC

Vince Cain
Retired RCMP Chief Superintendent
Former BC Chief Coroner

John Carsley, MD, MSc, FRCPC
Medical Health Officer, Member of Health Officers’ Council of BC

John Conroy, QC
Barrister & Solicitor, Conroy & Co.
President, NORML Canada

Neil Chantler
Barrister & Solicitor, A. Cameron Ward & Company Barristers and Solicitors

Caroline Ferris, MD, CCFP, FCFP
Physician, Creekside Withdrawal Management Centre
Clinical Instructor, Dept. of Family Practice, UBC
Clinical Faculty Team, Dept. of Family Practice Residency Program, UBC

Christian Fibiger, PhD
Chief Scientific Officer, MedGenesis Therapeutics

Benedikt Fischer, PhD
Professor & CIHR/PHAC Applied Public Health Chair, Faculty of Health Sciences, SFU
Director, Centre for Applied Research in Mental Health and Addiction

Jennifer Godwin-Ellis, BAH, LL.B
Lawyer

Mark Haden, MSW
Adjunct Professor, School of Nursing, UBC

Paul Hasselback, MD, MSc, FRCPC
Medical Health Officer, Member of Health Officers’ Council of BC
Clinical Associate Professor, School of Population and Public Health, UBC

Jacob Hunter
Policy Director, Beyond Prohibition Foundation

David Kennedy, M.D., FCCFP
Retired Physician

Thomas Kerr, PhD
Director, Urban Health Research Initiative, BC Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS
Associate Professor, Dept. of Medicine, UBC

Douglas C. King, LLB
Lawyer, Pivot Legal Society

Ross Lander
Retired Justice, BC Supreme Court

Josée Lavoie, PhD
Associate Professor, School of Health Sciences, UNBC
Assistant Professor, Dept. of Community Health Sciences, University of Manitoba
Research Affiliate, Manitoba First Nations Centre for Aboriginal Health Research

Randie Long
Former Federal Prosecutor (Nanaimo)

Donald MacPherson
Adjunct Professor, Faculty of Health Sciences, SFU
Director, Canadian Drug Policy Coalition

Richard Mathias, MHSc, MD, FRCPC
Professor and Public Health Program Head, School of Population and Public Health, UBC

Walter McKay
Former Police Officer
Consultant, WM Consulting
Director of International Affairs and Founder, Asociación Mexicana de Reducción de Riesgos y Daños

Julio Montaner, MD, FRCPC, FCCP, FACP, FRSC
Director, BC Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS
Immediate Past President, International AIDS Society

Bohdan Noysk, PhD
Health Economist, BC Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS

Eugenia Oviedo-Joekes, PhD
Assistant Professor, School of Population and Public Health, UBC
Research Scientist, Centre for Health Evaluation and Outcome Services, Providence Health Care

Heather Peters, MSW
Associate Professor, Social Work, UNBC

Katrina Pacey, LLB
Partner, Ethos Law
Litigation Director, Pivot Legal Society

Dan Reist
Assistant Director, Knowledge Exchange, Centre for Addictions Research BC

Chris Richardson, PhD
Assistant Professor & Michael Smith Foundation Scholar, School of Population and Public Health, UBC
Research Scientist, Centre for Health Evaluation and Outcome Services, Providence Health Care

Jean Shoveller, PhD
Professor & CIHR/PHAC Applied Public Health Chair, School of Population & Public Health, UBC
Senior Scholar, Michael Smith Foundation for Health Research

Timothy Temple, MBBS, CCFP, FRSA
Physician, Dept. of Family Practice, UBC

Kirk Tousaw, JD, LLM
Barrister, Law Office of Kirk Tousaw
Executive Director, Beyond Prohibition

Franklin White, MD, CM, MSc, FRCPC, FFPH
President, Pacific Health & Development Sciences Inc.

Evan Wood, MD, PhD, ABIM, FRCPC
Director, Urban Health Research Initiative, BC Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS
Professor, Dept. of Medicine, UBC

Cornelia Zeisser, PhD
Postdoctoral Fellow, Centre for Addictions Research BC

Good thing we listened to all those people with letters after their name in regards to climate change, eh?

I'm glad for you andy, Google makes you an expert on anything.

[andyt]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

Good thing we listened to all those people with letters after their name in regards to climate change, eh?

Abasolutely. We dodged the bullet there. Imagine the chaos if we reduced our carbon output, since as we've come to realize, there ain't no such thing as climate change.

[Curtman]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

My life is just great, thanks. I don't need substances to make me intoxicated to have a good life, but if that's your thing, all the power to ya. I don't expect you to stop and I don't care what you do in your home.

In the end, you guys act like you want to do a service to your Country. Like you care if the government makes more taxes or saves money or helps curb organized crime. Give me a break.

You want it to be easier to score some weed. Period.

It's very easy to score weed already, I don't think that's it. The liquor stores close here, the dealers never do.

[RUEZ]

Do you think if pot is legal here, organized crime will stop smuggling it into the U.S. and bringing back cocaine?

[ShepherdsDog]

or try and sell it cheaper than the government does?