[desertdude]

Let me repeat from my other post in regards to the blockade.

"only the Palmer reports says it is, which by and large has been dismissed by everyone including Israel and Turkey.

United Nations Human Rights Council head Navi Pillay and the International Committee of the Red Cross have go on record to say it is illegal and against the rules of war.

U.N. Undersecretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs, John Holmes, described the blockade as "collective punishment" which under the geneva convention is a war crime.

2009 Goldstone report states it as a crime against humanity, you really have to be grasping at straws to call it legal and that what I believe the Palmer report was doing, without citing any law or reference."

Also the unanswered question

"what ever loop hole the Israelis use to impose a blockade and call it legal, Hamas has the same exact right to impose one of its own. Although obviously its not able, what if Turkey for example decided to go ahead and help Hamas in imposing a blocked on Israel, would the Israelis and its supporters be ok with it ? After all it would be as legal as the Israeli one."

But ofcourse if you can justify the military occupation and land grab what is a blockade ?

[andyt]

martin14 martin14:

Yeah, and the Palestinians never kill the settlers.


There were settlements in Gaza, they were taken down, so this
can happen again.

But with Hamas in Gaza, daily rocket attacks,
the Arabs shooting off bs like their 'Peace' plan,
and now with Egypt and Syria having problems of their own, which could very easily
scuttle whatever peace Israel had with these countries ....


Try the reverse.. why would the Israelis be interested in peace at this time ?

There we go. The Israelis aren't interested in peace. Just put that on the table and dgo from there. If the US kept taking more and more Canadian land, what would you do? The Israelis don't know if the Palestinians are interested in peace because they're just merrily following their policy of lebensraum.

[DrCaleb]

desertdude desertdude:

"what ever loop hole the Israelis use to impose a blockade and call it legal, Hamas has the same exact right to impose one of its own. Although obviously its not able, what if Turkey for example decided to go ahead and help Hamas in imposing a blocked on Israel, would the Israelis and its supporters be ok with it ? After all it would be as legal as the Israeli one."

But ofcourse if you can justify the military occupation and land grab what is a blockade ?

No. The coastline of Israel is soverign territory, and for the warship of another nation to patrol without authorization it is an act of war.

It would be no different that Canada's coastline being patrolled by China, or when Canada sent a Destroyer, Hospital ship and Frigate to New Orleans after Katrina and they had to dock in Florida.

[martin14]

andyt andyt:

martin14 martin14:

Yeah, and the Palestinians never kill the settlers.


There were settlements in Gaza, they were taken down, so this
can happen again.

But with Hamas in Gaza, daily rocket attacks,
the Arabs shooting off bs like their 'Peace' plan,
and now with Egypt and Syria having problems of their own, which could very easily
scuttle whatever peace Israel had with these countries ....


Try the reverse.. why would the Israelis be interested in peace at this time ?

There we go. The Israelis aren't interested in peace. Just put that on the table and dgo from there. If the US kept taking more and more Canadian land, what would you do? The Israelis don't know if the Palestinians are interested in peace because they're just merrily following their policy of lebensraum.

Every once in a while you make like you might actually be thinking for a change,
and then you top it off with these truly astounding levels of idiotic bullshit.

Lesson learned.

[desertdude]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

desertdude desertdude:

"what ever loop hole the Israelis use to impose a blockade and call it legal, Hamas has the same exact right to impose one of its own. Although obviously its not able, what if Turkey for example decided to go ahead and help Hamas in imposing a blocked on Israel, would the Israelis and its supporters be ok with it ? After all it would be as legal as the Israeli one."

But ofcourse if you can justify the military occupation and land grab what is a blockade ?

No. The coastline of Israel is soverign territory, and for the warship of another nation to patrol without authorization it is an act of war.

It would be no different that Canada's coastline being patrolled by China, or when Canada sent a Destroyer, Hospital ship and Frigate to New Orleans after Katrina and they had to dock in Florida.

Like I said same loop hole applies.

Gazza has a coast line so does westbank and are occupied by a foriegn power, so Israeli patroling those waters makes it just as illegal as your example states. The blockade is illegal by all laws one can think of and to top it all off the cablegate I think which was posted by you state the Israelis are purposely choking gazza so it stays just sort of a humanitarian disaster.

The Geneva convention clearly states coolective punishment as illegal.

[FieryVulpine]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Nice map - ever notice how the dates on it coincide with wars the Arabs started to wipe Israel out.

While I sympathize with the Palestinians and their plight, the fact is that they (and the rest of the Arab world) started a couple of wars with Israel, and lost that territory mostly as a consequence of said wars. Israel has even returned other territory it gained in conflict, like the entire Sinai peninsula.

Had the Arabs really wanted to help the Palestinians out, they could easily have ceded some land to them to settle. Instead, they used them as a PR tool to point to the world at how bad Israel is.

I don't agree with Israel authorizing these new settlements, but I also think that the problem could have been solved decades ago if the Arabs didn't want to see Israel wiped off the map.

A very good point. I noticed that a jarring double standard exists in the pro-Palestinian side in regards to how they run their own territories. From my own observations I noticed that Hamas has a keen interest in keeping their own people impoverished (despite a growing a middle class in the Gaza Strip, guess that blockade must be working, eh?) to further their own genocidal agenda. When Israel withdrew in 2005 they left some greenhouses that any enterprising Palestinian could use to start a business but what did they do? They smashed it up. Let's not forget how Hamas targets civilians in Israel and uses their own civilians as human shields because they know of the Leftist bleeding hearts in the West who lack any sort of critical thinking. Guess they missed the memo on how Hamas uses the mentally-disabled as unwilling suicide bombers.

As for the blockade, for the longest time Iran was the main sponsor of Hamas and their imperialistic ambitions include the obliteration of Israel and its inhabitants. Looks like Turkey, whose own crimes in Cyprus and the Armenians long ago (which they continue to deny) are well known, is looking to revive the Ottoman Empire and is throwing their weight behind Hamas-controlled Gaza as well. I expect to see a lot of dead Israeli children if they lower the blockade or the Turks decide to break it because weapons and war materiel will flow into Gaza once it's done.

tl;dr version: The Palestinians don't deserve my sympathy and their supporters are hypocrites.

[DrCaleb]

desertdude desertdude:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

desertdude desertdude:

"what ever loop hole the Israelis use to impose a blockade and call it legal, Hamas has the same exact right to impose one of its own. Although obviously its not able, what if Turkey for example decided to go ahead and help Hamas in imposing a blocked on Israel, would the Israelis and its supporters be ok with it ? After all it would be as legal as the Israeli one."

But ofcourse if you can justify the military occupation and land grab what is a blockade ?

No. The coastline of Israel is soverign territory, and for the warship of another nation to patrol without authorization it is an act of war.

It would be no different that Canada's coastline being patrolled by China, or when Canada sent a Destroyer, Hospital ship and Frigate to New Orleans after Katrina and they had to dock in Florida.

Like I said same loop hole applies..

Loophole? It's international law, not a part of the law that allows exceptions.

desertdude desertdude:

Gazza has a coast line so does westbank and are occupied by a foriegn power, so Israeli patroling those waters makes it just as illegal as your example states. The blockade is illegal by all laws one can think of and to top it all off the cablegate I think which was posted by you state the Israelis are purposely choking gazza so it stays just sort of a humanitarian disaster.

I look, but I don't see any internationally recognized countries by those names. Therefore they do not have coastlines to defend. Like it or not the UN is the arbator of internation law, and it does not recognize Gaza as an independent country. And I'd really like to see a map of the proposed Westbank coastline. I'll bet they get all sorts of shipping traffic from the Dead Sea.

And as stated earlier, aid gets to Gaza, either through an Israli port, or from Egypt. No one is denying them anything. Except weapons.

Are you saying they should be given more weapons?

desertdude desertdude:

The Geneva convention clearly states coolective punishment as illegal.

The Geneva convention also applies to two states at war. Does Hamas wear uniforms with insignias denoting rank? If not, the Geneva Conventions are not in effect.

[eureka]

bootlegga bootlegga:

desertdude desertdude:

Yes I can see how they hold 80% of the land

Nice map - ever notice how the dates on it coincide with wars the Arabs started to wipe Israel out.

While I sympathize with the Palestinians and their plight, the fact is that they (and the rest of the Arab world) started a couple of wars with Israel, and lost that territory mostly as a consequence of said wars. Israel has even returned other territory it gained in conflict, like the entire Sinai peninsula.

Had the Arabs really wanted to help the Palestinians out, they could easily have ceded some land to them to settle. Instead, they used them as a PR tool to point to the world at how bad Israel is.

I don't agree with Israel authorizing these new settlements, but I also think that the problem could have been solved decades ago if the Arabs didn't want to see Israel wiped off the map.

The problem with that is that the Arab States consider themselves justified in starting those wars. They do not see it that way, either. They consider the presence of Israel on traditional Palestinian lands as an ongoing act of war. To them, Israel is an imposition of the Great powers on lands seized from the Arabs.

After this length of time, it does not matter what the right and wrong of that is. Realistically, Israel is, and will remain, even if it requires more and more protection from those same powers that enabled it - as it will.

Now, the settlement of the question has to be that of the pre 1967 proposals. There can be no other or there will be a permanent state of war that will wear Israel down if left on its own. It is the shortsightedness of Israel that is preventing that.

[DrCaleb]

I think I'll start a new rights group. "Mesopotamia for Mesopotamians".

Everyone will have to leave our traditional lands or face generations of whiny people who can't change with the flow of current events.

[desertdude]

Right !

[andyt]

bootlegga bootlegga:

While I sympathize with the Palestinians and their plight, the fact is that they (and the rest of the Arab world) started a couple of wars with Israel, and lost that territory mostly as a consequence of said wars. Israel has even returned other territory it gained in conflict, like the entire Sinai peninsula.

Had the Arabs really wanted to help the Palestinians out, they could easily have ceded some land to them to settle. Instead, they used them as a PR tool to point to the world at how bad Israel is.

I don't agree with Israel authorizing these new settlements, but I also think that the problem could have been solved decades ago if the Arabs didn't want to see Israel wiped off the map.

Doesn't answer the question of what to do now. Do you really want to see the Palestinians pushed into the Jordan?

The US has given Israel carte blanche in how it behaves. US support for Israel should be contingent on not one new settlement being built and a serious push to close those already present. Otherwise let Israel look out for itself.

[desertdude]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

And as stated earlier, aid gets to Gaza, either through an Israli port, or from Egypt. No one is denying them anything. Except weapons.

Right ! Up until the Turkish flotilla shoved it up Israel's ass only 119 items were allowed into Gazza even choclate was banned, only after the global uproar they said they would ease it a little but havent seen if that has actually happened or not and the last time I saw a report on some news channel it is still upto Israeli discretion what goes in and not. A truck load of eggs was refused and smashed instead of simply turning them back. I also heard although might have been allowed to buy Israeli goods now but they are still prevented from engaging in dignified, productive work and from traveling.

Try wrapping you head around that one, would you agree if maybe one of your distant cousin was convicted of something your entire extended family also has to serve prison time for his actions ? If this is not collective punishment than what is ?

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The Geneva convention also applies to two states at war. Does Hamas wear uniforms with insignias denoting rank? If not, the Geneva Conventions are not in effect.

And that is exactly why Puppet master and puppet both are jumping up and down in frenzy against recognition of a Palestenian state. Then by ever law conciveable the military occupation becomes illegal and Israel is liable to be tried ( and most probably found guilty ) for its war crimes.

Right now Israel and its fans are using this strawman loop hole to avoid this and justify its daily land grab and military occupation

And FYI the geneva convention also applies to Armed conflict within one country of a non international nature. Common article 3 and the blockade and collective punishment comes under as one of the grave breaches of the convention.

[Bacardi4206]

eureka eureka:

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

eureka eureka:

I think the UN is on shaky ground in declaring the blockade legal. Blockades are, in international law, legal, only when the antagonists are in a state of war. Or, when the UN has said that they are necessary to preserve international peace.

Any right of interdiction that might be used as justification - the right that seems to be the basis for arguments that say it is legal, fall flat since they can only apply to weapons being brought into the blockader's territory.

I see the blockades only as further aggression and the act of a self appointed "prison warden."

You see the blockades as a act of aggression only because it meets your arguement that Israel is abusing Palestinians or whatever you're arguement is. The reality isn't so. The blockade acts as a barrier between weapon smugglers and there destination. There is nothing else going on with it. Gaza get's all shipments that comes to them, expecially aid. It's only screened first for weapons before being sent to it's destination via from the Israel port.

Gaza has other borders which cannot be blockaded by Israel, for instance the Egypt border. If they were in a "prison", I'd fire the fool that designed it as that's in general like only putting up a security fence 3rd of the way through and leaving a big gap that the prisoners can just walk out of. Food for thought.

And you see them as not being aggressive because it suits your argument. However, I say that you are wrong. Israel has no legal grounds for blockading. Refer to my post on that and show me where it is in error.

Also, the Egyptian border is effectively sealed with the agreements between Egypt and Israel. Egypt does not want hundreds of thousands of Palestinians flooding in, either.

The Gaza residents are living in Third World conditions imposed on them by the Israelis.

Oh damn, you took my words and reversed them on me . Anyways, Israel has every legal grounds for blockading them. Israel is under constant state of threat from Hamas who occupy those locations. Israel constantly finds smuggled weapons, even advanced weapons like anti-aircraft missles.

What was this that you said "Blockades are, in international law, legal, only when the antagonists are in a state of war. Or, when the UN has said that they are necessary to preserve international peace."

Idk about you but launching suicide bombers, missles, rockets and attempting even more variety of attacks against Israel seems like they are in a state of war no? Wouldn't that also preserve peace by not enabling these individuals who make it there buisness to target Israeli civilians anything that can cause serious harm? There is nothing wrong with that Israel is doing, it prevents as stated a hundred times weapons being smuggled in that can be used against Israel and it's citizens. That's something that is done in Israel's self defense in the name of it's security. I've not seen you give me one fact that shows why this blockade is illegal besides stating it is.

[desertdude]

Yes the Warsaw Ghetto was also to protect the Third Reich.

[eureka]

You are still on the wrong side, Bacardi. There is no state of war when there is only one state. Palestine is not a state but an occupied territory. The Palestinian action is a resistance to occupation.

Therefore, the blockade is illegal under International Law.

As for Israel being under constant threat, that is a bit rich. Stone throwing boys against tanks and modern weapons.

I don't recall the ratio of deaths, but there are many times as many Palestinians killed as Israelis. Many times.

The thing about all this is that there is no other conclusion than that the Israelis are illegally occupying territory and brutally oppressing the indigenous people.

Payback is inevitable. Israel is building a catastrophe for its future. If another war were to start now with the neighbouring Arab countries, just think about those three million or so Palestinians who either live in Israel or in the occupied territories: literally a stone's throw away. It wouold need half of Israel's forces to keep them under control.