[desertdude]

As for the wars they keep losing is only because the IDF is fully funded and supported by its puppet the US. If Israel wasn't fully backed by the US it wouldn't even fart in the wrong direction.

But currently I accept the US's pledge to defend Israel but Israel someone thinks that means its acceptable to be the aggrresor, the US keeps quite on expansion and occupation so its in agreement aswell.

Give them what they want and they'll shut up and currently they are not asking for much. But pasts victories and the US and the western world turning a blind eye towards it actions has only added to its hubris, so it thinks it can do whatever it wants and unfortunately as it stands thats the case.

Other than the begging politicians and the jewish and evagilical minority I seriously wonder what Israel has on the US that it can make it dance to its tune everytime without fail. But what is even more baffling is Canada's support for it, or is it just the US's lackie who when Israels says jump it says how high ? Or is it that the US also has somthing on Canada ? In that case it would mean Israel effectively has N.America by the gonads. Just trying to figure out the politics of this whole situation.

Pretty resourcefull for tiny country with a small population, credit is given where credit is due.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

Just try to remember who keeps initiating and losing the wars.....

corrected to reflect historical accuracy.

Giving the Arabs East Jerusalem is a no go. The Jews remember how the Muslims desecrated their cemeteries and synagogues from 1948 until 1967. The xxxxx occupying the Temple Mount still throw rocks down on worshippers who come to pray at the Western Wall. We were given hard hats when we last visited it. I'm heading back this December.

[ShepherdsDog]

$1:

As for the wars they keep losing is only because the IDF is fully funded and supported by its puppet the US. If Israel wasn't fully backed by the US it wouldn't even fart in the wrong direction.

This ladies and gentlemen is complete and utter bullshit, but that's to be expected. Stick to Landrovers, tourist excursions and Dubai because your understanding of historical facts, when it comes to Israel, is absolute garbage.

The Americans hold the leash on Israel, and have since the Suez Crisis in 1956, not the other way around. If Israel weren't restrained, there wouldn't be a 'Palestinian' issue today, and Sinai would still be in Israeli hands. The Arab Muslims just don't like to admit they were beat by a smaller force of ill equipped men and women, time and time again. The Arabs that left Israel did so, not because they were driven out, but because they expected to return in a few weeks time to a Jew free land and that they could claim all the improvements made by the Jews for their own.

Israel was armed and supported initially by the Russians and their allies, then grudgingly by the French and British. It wasn't until later in the game, in the dying minutes of the last quarter, that the Americans sold them arms...at the same time they were arming Iran and Turkey, as a counter to the Russians arming the Arabs in Egypt and Syria. Besides, equipment means very little compared to those who operate it. The Arab Legion was a good example of this. They had the newest weapons and even British officers, but still the much smaller army of Jewish irregulars took them on, with hardly anything, and then took them out History can be your friend if you understand it and it'll burn you, just like fire, if you play with it carelessly.

[Curtman]

martin14 martin14:

desertdude desertdude:

I will be the first one to agree that it was stupid for the Arabs to go to war after indepence and they have paid a heavy price for it and they learnt their lesson.

I don't think the PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah and some 20 other terrorist groups have, and therein lies the problem.


The Palestinians need to stop shooting and cut a deal.



Settlements were taken down in Gaza before 2005, so this is not an issue.


But every day they delay, the Wall keeps going up, and the new defacto borders
will be of Israel's choosing, and Israel only.

Bad deal all around.

There is no deal to make if Israel wont end settlement expansion. Why would anybody make a deal that allows Israel to continue stealing land for settlements?

[eureka]

The original plan of the UN was for Jerusalem to be under international supervision. That is still the way out of this whether either side likes it or not.

Until the day when both get themselves out of a primitive past and put their religions aside.

[ShepherdsDog]

I've worked with(not for) the UN....it's not an organization that could effectively administer a city, especially one as volatile as Jerusalem. Hell they would have trouble running a lemonade stand.

[desertdude]

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

This ladies and gentlemen is complete and utter bullshit, but that's to be expected. Stick to Landrovers, tourist excursions and Dubai because your understanding of historical facts, when it comes to Israel, is absolute garbage.

The Americans hold the leash on Israel, and have since the Suez Crisis in 1956, not the other way around. If Israel weren't restrained, there wouldn't be a 'Palestinian' issue today, and Sinai would still be in Israeli hands. The Arab Muslims just don't like to admit they were beat by a smaller force of ill equipped men and women, time and time again. The Arabs that left Israel did so, not because they were driven out, but because they expected to return in a few weeks time to a Jew free land and that they could claim all the improvements made by the Jews for their own.

Israel was armed and supported initially by the Russians and their allies, then grudgingly by the French and British. It wasn't until later in the game, in the dying minutes of the last quarter, that the Americans sold them arms...at the same time they were arming Iran and Turkey, as a counter to the Russians arming the Arabs in Egypt and Syria. Besides, equipment means very little compared to those who operate it. The Arab Legion was a good example of this. They had the newest weapons and even British officers, but still the much smaller army of Jewish irregulars took them on, with hardly anything, and then took them out History can be your friend if you understand it and it'll burn you, just like fire, if you play with it carelessly.

And you stick to your what I like to appropriately call fanboi-ery. The same which makes US dance to Israel's tune when almost the entire world sides with a palestenian state the US will veto it.

And the same which justifies the military occupation, land grab and siege of Palestine which by the way you have nothing to say about so I assume you agree with, you got pelted by stones, big deal. You go to a prison, then expect to be insulted and harrased by the prisoners. The entire palestenian population live in a prison and have their homes destroyed and land stolen but you could only muster up the courage to insult a few peopel who most probably out of flustration are trying to vent their anger on the people who they think are the cause of their misery. I'm sure if you were in their shoes you would have welcomed them with open arms

You're suppose to be some kind of super history buff but choose to remember your history selectively. If one is to take lessons from history then it should be you and the Israelis.

If gaza is not another reincarnation of the warsaw ghetto than what is and before you get your panties in a serious twist and get ready to throw out basless lables like anti semite and holocaust denier maybe you would like to have a look at this. Maybe he is also one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEYz00Mq ... r_embedded

Even the slightest condemnation for the Israeli aggresion and abuse towards the palestenians or even the lack of ability to look at the situation objectively speaks volumes.

Just a personal question if you don't mind me asking are you or your wife Jewish ? Because you seem to visit Israel a lot, you've said it yourself you've got family there because I've seen this kind of fan boi-ery before on forums. It either comes from Zionist Jews or Hard Core Evangilists or in popular media from American politicians when bending over for voters or for the like of AIPAC or such.

[Bacardi4206]

desertdude desertdude:

The days of using Hamas and hezboallah as a crutch to continue the and justify the military occupation and the land grab are long gone.

Really? The continuing of shooting rockets into Israel civilian sectors begs to differ, not to mention the constant times Israel has stopped people smuggling even more deadly weapons into gaza for Hamas. If anything, that proves Israel requires military occupation for it's own defense. Hamas is a issue for Israeli security, so long as they exist. They hinder any ability for Israeli and Palestinians to coexist or have peace.

$1:

The problem lies with denying the palestenians a state, continuing the land grab and military occupation, keeping Gazza an open air prison.

No the problem lies with the Palestinians putting there support behind a terrorist organization as Hamas who's only goal is the destruction of Israel. How exactly is Israeli going to put down a deal like that when organizations like Hamas have shown to be in power and well supported by the people Israeli is supposivly suppose to give a nation to. A organization that wants Israel dead, that makes no sense to me. That's not much of a deal for Israel.

$1:

Once you settle all these issues, then Hamas, hezbollah or anyother have no teeth left to chew and no one would utter a peep if Israel went after them, infact it would then make the arabs and Iran look bad if they didnt themselves or atleast assist.

Right, once Israel grants Palestine there requested land to become a nation. Everything will all be rainbows and sunshine. Like when Israeli was granted small ammounts of useless land in which it's arab neighbours thought was still too much for them and attacked Israel. History dictated that no matter what Israel has or does, it's still going to have people bitching at it and planning hostilities against it. Israel is in a great defensable position against such a thing at this moment. You are essentially asking Israel to give up it's defensable position and to take one that will better allow some Arab nations to quickly overrun Israel like they tried years ago.

$1:

Arabs and all its neighbours are willing to recognise and restore all normal contacts with Israel, which will also benefit it a great deal istead of living isolated and mostly on donations.

I agree that it would be great for Israel to one day have relations with it's arab neighbours with florishing trade deals. However with Egypt aiding in trafficing arms to Hamas, as well as other Arab nations help fund them. I suspect it's not going to be very easy. Expecially when there government get involved by threatening to disobey the legal Israel blockade and forcefully provide navy escort to ships deliverying supplies from said arab country to Palestine. A blockade designed not to deny them aid, they get all aid delivery to them but to merely screen everything for any hidden weapon smuggling or anything Hamas could use against Israel.

I have no problem with Palestine becoming a reconised country, however not at this time. They need to get there shit sorted out before that. Expecially when they do everything possible to undermine any peace negotiations with Israel.

[ShepherdsDog]

desertdude desertdude:

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:

This ladies and gentlemen is complete and utter bullshit, but that's to be expected. Stick to Landrovers, tourist excursions and Dubai because your understanding of historical facts, when it comes to Israel, is absolute garbage.

The Americans hold the leash on Israel, and have since the Suez Crisis in 1956, not the other way around. If Israel weren't restrained, there wouldn't be a 'Palestinian' issue today, and Sinai would still be in Israeli hands. The Arab Muslims just don't like to admit they were beat by a smaller force of ill equipped men and women, time and time again. The Arabs that left Israel did so, not because they were driven out, but because they expected to return in a few weeks time to a Jew free land and that they could claim all the improvements made by the Jews for their own.

Israel was armed and supported initially by the Russians and their allies, then grudgingly by the French and British. It wasn't until later in the game, in the dying minutes of the last quarter, that the Americans sold them arms...at the same time they were arming Iran and Turkey, as a counter to the Russians arming the Arabs in Egypt and Syria. Besides, equipment means very little compared to those who operate it. The Arab Legion was a good example of this. They had the newest weapons and even British officers, but still the much smaller army of Jewish irregulars took them on, with hardly anything, and then took them out History can be your friend if you understand it and it'll burn you, just like fire, if you play with it carelessly.

And you stick to your what I like to appropriately call fanboi-ery. The same which makes US dance to Israel's tune when almost the entire world sides with a palestenian state the US will veto it.

And the same which justifies the military occupation, land grab and siege of Palestine which by the way you have nothing to say about so I assume you agree with, you got pelted by stones, big deal. You go to a prison, then expect to be insulted and harrased by the prisoners. The entire palestenian population live in a prison and have their homes destroyed and land stolen but you could only muster up the courage to insult a few peopel who most probably out of flustration are trying to vent their anger on the people who they think are the cause of their misery. I'm sure if you were in their shoes you would have welcomed them with open arms

You're suppose to be some kind of super history buff but choose to remember your history selectively. If one is to take lessons from history then it should be you and the Israelis.

If gaza is not another reincarnation of the warsaw ghetto than what is and before you get your panties in a serious twist and get ready to throw out basless lables like anti semite and holocaust denier maybe you would like to have a look at this. Maybe he is also one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEYz00Mq ... r_embedded

Even the slightest condemnation for the Israeli aggresion and abuse towards the palestenians or even the lack of ability to look at the situation objectively speaks volumes.

Just a personal question if you don't mind me asking are you or your wife Jewish ? Because you seem to visit Israel a lot, you've said it yourself you've got family there because I've seen this kind of fan boi-ery before on forums. It either comes from Zionist Jews or Hard Core Evangilists or in popular media from American politicians when bending over for voters or for the like of AIPAC or such.

Once you learn a little real history, I might discuss the matters with you. As it stands, what you're shovelling is only fit to be scraped off the bottom of my shoe.

Yeah, Clan Campbell is a Jewish organization Half of my MiL's(She's United Church of canada, hardly a friend of Israel) cousins are 'Jewish' and one of my cousins married a fellow from Israel. As for being an evangelical, At best, I'm what you could loosely call an optimistic agnostic. However, I am a Zionist, laying somewhere between political Zionism and cultural Zionism....imagine that a secular Zionist.

[Bacardi4206]

[quote="mhikl"][/quote]

Israel shows no signs of serious peace? You kidding me. You mean besides the initial UN plan that was going to do as everybody has been requesting of Israeli which divides the land into two seperate states. One Arab and one Jewish. Which the Jews accepted and the Arabs did not or how about the OSLO Accords, which gave Palestine the right to govern parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip? How about after 1990 Israel withdrew from Hebron and signed the Wye River Memorandum, giving greater control to the Palestinians.

I also don't believe Israel has any attentions to give back the land, neither should they. It's not stolen land, last I checked Jews lived in that area for a very long time unti'll they were forced out by Arabs. This is correcting what was done along time ago. Israel is not a country just for Jews, it's a state where Jews, Muslims and Christians coexist. Outside Israel is a place where only muslims coexist. Israel is a restoration of how it should be. Giving the land to who it belongs to, which is Jews and Arabs. Also last I checked, that land that they "stole" was taken from a war where a few muslim countries attacked Israel. Israel gained the land in the war. Bottom line, if they diddn't want to lose the land than they shouldn't have tried to remove Israel of it's land. The only thing Israel has done wrong here is those settlements. It's the only thing I disagree with and the major thing Israel has done that hinders peaceful negotiations.

Also Palestinians have a future, the funniest thing about this conflict was how the media tried to potrey Gaza citizens of starving, poor, something out of those African aid commercials. Yet when facts came out about that, they showed Gaza citizens as averagely obese and even gaining obesity. They showed them buying arms and weapons from Egypt and other goods, even $2, 000 motor bikes. Facts stated they were neither starving nor poor. The only time they get it rough is when Israel retaliates for a Hamas attack. Which is as much to blame on Hamas and themselves as it is to blame on Israel. If Hamas stopped attacking Israel, Israel would have no reason neither excuse to launch attacks in Gaza.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

I'm still trying to figure out why Canada should even give a fuck what goes on over there. It's not our problem and I resent governments and individuals that insist on getting involved at any level outside of finding a way for both sides to smarten the fuck up.

[desertdude]

You see when you start using the Torah as a valid and legal land deed then you're on a slippery slop. Then why don't you all just fuck off from N.American continent and give it back to the Indians or who ever the fuck it was who lived there before that.

Just turn back 500 years and most of you will be living in holland or Germany somewhere today. Even then Judaism is not a nationality most of them came there were Europeans stretching back generations.

If you support the creation of Israel through Jewish terrorism then you should also be open to the idea of creation of a Palestine through Palestenian terrorism, right ?

What was many Jewish presidents, leaders and gangs like the Ergun and Stern gang, the british clearly classified all of them terrorists.

Hope the world is more civilised now and it can be achieved peacefully. The biggest nutcracker for Israel if Palestenian state is then it can be officialy tried for its war crimes. And any court like the ICC in its right mind cannot find it not guilty because it has broken every modern human right and war laws.

And for once I'm in agreement with PA9 that if you cannot help solve this problem then stay the fuck out and you have no bussiness there, that goes for all sides be it Iran or the US.

And Barcadi you made some very valid points that I agree with but when you said the blockade is legal all of that went down the drain.

And Shep, very easy to dismiss what I said because all you can hang on to your selective historical accounts, and being a Zionist the case with you is will if the Israelis bombed your houseinto rubble and killed your entire family you would say its not their fault my house came in the way and most probably I totally deserved it.

But thanks for being honest enough to atleast admit you're a zionist.

[Thanos]

If the Palestinians wanted a more reasonable Israel to exist right now then they shouldn't have done their best in the Second Intifadah to kill off the Israeli left. Because that's was acheived with all those disgusting suicide bombing the cowards were committing against Israeli civilians during that time, they managed to destroy any remaining sympathy the majority of Israeli Jews still had for them. Don't like having to deal with Bibi? Look in the mirror then and say to yourself, "man, blowing up those transit buses and street cafes full of school kids really turned out to be a fucking stupid idea, didn't it?'.

And, by the way, President Obama just gave Israel over 200 high powered bunker-buster aerial bombs for when the Jews finally, and rightfully, go to wipe Iran off the map. Shows how much even he, the supposed Communist crypto-Muslim lefty coward, cares about the opinion that the Palestinians (or any other Muslim for that matter) have about US support for Israel.

[eureka]

You do know that Iran is eight times the size of Israel? Israel can no longer wipe anyone off the map. It relies now on nuclear blackmail and US support.

Interesting to see that anti-Islam is starting to creep in.

The reality of the Middle East now is that Israel is lost if it does not soon negotiate in goof faith: stop the settlement and either get the Hell out of Palestinian territory or recognise that the settlers are foreign workers under the control of the host government of Palestine.

[eureka]

You do know that Iran is eight times the size of Israel? Israel can no longer wipe anyone off the map. It relies now on nuclear blackmail and US support.

Interesting to see that anti-Islam is starting to creep in.

The reality of the Middle East now is that Israel is lost if it does not soon negotiate in goof faith: stop the settlement and either get the Hell out of Palestinian territory or recognise that the settlers are foreign workers under the control of the host government of Palestine.