[andyt]

See Stratos' post above. Both yours and his conveniently forget mentioning the West Bank.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

How about the Jews stay, but treat the Palestinians the way we treat the First Nations -

Done:

$1:

Why does Israel, who didn't start this war, have to be the ones to make all the concessions towards peace?

You also conveniently forget that Israel has never stopped building settlements on Occupied territory. Never. they withdrew from Gaza but still expanding elsewhere on land that is not part of Israel. And then there are all the daily and ongoing things that nobody talks about, like diverting drinking water from Palestinian villages to water Israeli lawns and fill Israeli swimming pools. The quality of daily life inside the Israeli bubble comes directly at the expense of the Palestinians who are not allowed in the bubble.

And about that Gaza withdrawal: In an October 6, 2004, interview with Haaretz, Dov Weissglass, Ariel Sharon's chief of staff, stated that the real purpose of the Gaza withdrawal was to derail the peace process: "The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process.... When you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Disengagement supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

[N_Fiddledog]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You also conveniently forget that Israel has never stopped building settlements on Occupied territory.

Occupied territories is nothing more than convenient labeling for leftists. Disputed territory is more accurate. Israelis have as much claim to that land as the ideological descendants of an Islamic invasion.

The conflict is an ideological one. The Ayatolah of Iran (a state that supplies much of the funding to the terrorist side of the conflict) claims the religion of Islam can never give up territory once it has conquered it. This is why he has recently vowed a continuous assault on the state of Israel until the Jews leave.

[N_Fiddledog]

Now as to "OMG, a Jewish zealot might have burned something!"

This is interesting:

HERE'S A BRIEF LIST OF MUSLIM ARSON ATTACKS ON ISRAELI JEWS THIS WEEK


Thursday – July 30

10:40 Muslims threw Molotov cocktails at Israeli vehicles near the village of Beit Ummar in Gush Etzion

Wednesday – July 29

Muslims threw firebombs and stones at police in Jerusalem’s Isiwiya neighborhood

12:22 Muslims threw an explosive device at the Tomb of Rachel. The worshipers were taken away and a police sapper on his way to the scene (Tazpit News Agency)

Tuesday – July 28

0:23 Muslims threw firebombs at homes in Ma’aleh Olives in Jerusalem’s Old City

19:59 Muslims firebombed military vehicles on the Gilad raod in the Shomron

Monday – July 27

0:23 A fire broke out in the town of Psagot Benjamin after Muslimss threw multiple firebombs at homes

21:37 Muslims threw a Molotov cocktail at Israeli vehicles near the settlement of Ma’ale Adumim

11:10 Muslim terrorists imprisoned in jail, ignited a fire in one of the cells. 11 prison guards and two inmates were injured moderately easy to smoke inhalation, one of the guards was evacuated to a medical center.

11:09 The fire broke out in Elon Moreh was renewed. Three firefighters working there.

Sunday – July 26

19:04 Two policemen were wounded by a Molotov cocktail thrown by Muslim rioters in Isiwiya

18:00 Muslims set fire to a forest fire in Gush Etzion hills. Six planes and six firefighters with volunteers were in place.

16:30 Elon forest fire flared up again. Eight firefighters and six aircraft were in place. Two mobile homes were burned down

14:11 Muslims threw Molotov cocktails and stones at Border Police in Isiwiya


Friday – July 24

21:20 Firefighters arrived to extinguish a fire in Isiwiya Jerusalem, a confrontation between police and Muslim rioters. Number of people shut down affected by tear gas, and two of them were evacuated to a medical center for further treatment.

This doesn't make the headlines. It's not a breaking news story. There's no outrage. It's just life everyday under the shadow of Islamic hatred. And while none of this was that bad, it's just one week.

Here's what Muslim arson terror looks like.

“It became a phenomenon since last year,” he continued. “Especially very close to the Arab villages and on the north side of Jerusalem.” In total there have been 80 such attempts in this area alone during the first 23 days of the past month alone Abras says.

“On this [the Ofrit] base, around and inside the base we found about 15 attempts [this month],” Abras details. The Hashalom Forest–or the Peace Forest– has been the target of 20 such attacks in the same time span.

“They call it a peace forest but there is no peace there,” Abras says, explaining the ease with which someone can set fire to the verdant landscape.

“They can stand on the hill and throw downhill a burning tire. You don’t need more than two men, one burning tire and matches,” he explains.

The head of the Muslim Brotherhood personally tried to start one such fire.

The leader of a major Muslim movement in Israel is suspected of setting fire to a forest less than three months after the worst fire in modern Israeli history. Sheikh Ra'ad Salah, head of the northern branch of the Islamic Movement, has been arrested in connection to an arson attack in southern Israel.

Salah allegedly set fire to a Eucalyptus forest in southern Israel. The attack was allegedly in protest of a Jewish National Fund project in the area.

The worst such fire may have been the Carmel forest fire of 2010, whose causes remain obscure, which killed 44 people.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/25964 ... greenfield

[BartSimpson]

Given all of this the more likely scenario is a couple of moslems accidentally killed one of their own kids (which is newsworthy) instead of some Jewish kids (which isn't).

[BeaverFever]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You also conveniently forget that Israel has never stopped building settlements on Occupied territory.

Occupied territories is nothing more than convenient labeling for leftists. Disputed territory is more accurate. Israelis have as much claim to that land as the ideological descendants of an Islamic invasion.

The state of Israel was established in 1948 as a nation state with established borders. The occupied territories are not in those borders. Period. That's all that matters. We all have ancestors who came from somewhere else, doesn't give us the right to occupy that land and claim it as our own.

[N_Fiddledog]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

You also conveniently forget that Israel has never stopped building settlements on Occupied territory.

Occupied territories is nothing more than convenient labeling for leftists. Disputed territory is more accurate. Israelis have as much claim to that land as the ideological descendants of an Islamic invasion.

The state of Israel was established in 1948 as a nation state with established borders. The occupied territories are not in those borders. Period. That's all that matters. We all have ancestors who came from somewhere else, doesn't give us the right to occupy that land and claim it as our own.

Borders change all the time. There was a recent change in the Crimea for example. The Israelis have as much historical claim to the disputed territories as the Islamic invaders. Islam invaded and took control. The Jews regained control in a later conflict.

That territory has moved back and forth in claim of ownership any number of times. At present the authority over the territory is disputed.

[BeaverFever]

Stop being so idiotic. Countries aren't allowed to invade other territories and claim land as their own.

Palestinians are not migrants from Arabia, they are locals. Like most of the Middle Eastern peoples "Arab" is not their race, but their general culture. Just like how Quebec Cree speak French despite not being from France.

Besides, not all Palestinians are Muslim, some are Christian and they are equally anti-occupation as Ted Cruz had to learn the hard way. A little reading would've gone a long way, Ted!

[N_Fiddledog]

You were speaking in generalities. I replied in generalities.

The only specific claim you made was incorrect. This below never happened.

$1:

The state of Israel was established in 1948 as a nation state with established borders

The British Mandate ended. Israel declared itself, but no borders were established.

In 1949 there was no land claimed by anything called Palestinians. Israel however was attacked by an Arab league of nations. The Jews won, but afterwards Jordan claimed authority over the West Bank. Egypt claimed authority over Gaza.

Now let's examine your statement.

$1:

Stop being so idiotic. Countries aren't allowed to invade other territories and claim land as their own.

Huh? What did the Jordanians and the Egyptians do? They attacked. They proclaimed authority.

As to the different races and religions within the region, of course they exist. Among them are Jews. The conflict however is solely sourced at the ideology of domination the Mohammedan invaders brought from Arabia against the Jewish belief in right of return.

But speaking of Idiots. If you want to start talking actual history, catch up. Here's a cartoon for you to simplify things.

[BartSimpson]

N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:

Islam invaded and took control. The Jews regained control in a later conflict.

You made an interesting observation here.

There have been Jews living in Israel for some 6,000 years. As the Islamic apologists like to say the Muslims 'lived in peace' with the Jews so let's embrace that argument for a moment and use it to underline the fact that the Jews lived there for all that time.

So at one point the area was under Jewish control, then Roman control, then Muslim control, and now it's under Jewish control again.

[BeaverFever]

$1:

The British Mandate ended.

...As if it just expired like a "best before date".

$1:

Israel declared itself,

No, sorry. Israel did not "declare itself". A group of people claimed entitlement to a piece of land, which they wanted to call Israel.

$1:

but no borders were established.

Ok, your idiotic narrative is that the land now known as Israel and the occupied territories somehow came "up for grabs" when the prior ownership (by Britain of all people!) magically expired. And since the Jews were first to call 'dibs' and they have an ancient ancestral claim, then whatever they think belongs to them should just be given to them no question asked whiile the losers should just become the world's refugees. Childish argument from start to finish.

On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of a plan to partition Palestine into "Independent Arab and Jewish States" and a "Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem" administered by the United Nations.

Eliahu Epstein, Agent, Provisional Government of Israel said in a letter to President Truman seeking recognition from the U.S government, sent immediately after the Declaration of 14 May 1948, that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947.

Here is what that map looked like:


The land Israel captured in 1967 is not recognized by anyone as Israeli territory, not even the US. EVEN ISRAEL does not officially claim it as Israeli territory.

Egypt and Jordan rightfully relinquished their claims to it, which I suppose makes them more noble than your version of the zionist story?

[BeaverFever]

$1:

The conflict however is solely sourced at the ideology of domination the Mohammedan invaders brought from Arabia against the Jewish belief in right of return.

Oh, if only they weren't muslin, the Non-Jews wouldn't mind being occupied? As I pointed out clearly, the Christians in the region are anti-Israel and don't enjoy occupation. FUN FACT: people don't enjoy being occupied by anyone. EVER.

$1:

There have been Jews living in Israel for some 6,000 years. As the Islamic apologists like to say the Muslims 'lived in peace' with the Jews so let's embrace that argument for a moment and use it to underline the fact that the Jews lived there for all that time.

So at one point the area was under Jewish control, then Roman control, then Muslim control, and now it's under Jewish control again.

By that logic, Native Americans should take back control of North America, all North Americans should have right of return to whatever Eurpean nation of their ancestry, and the people who occupied the Levant before the Jews should take back their land (spoiler: that's probably the Palestinians).

[martin14]

[quote="BeaverFever"]The General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947.

Here is what that map looked like:




The Arabs never agreed to this, they went to war. And lost.

Why is this so difficult to understand ?

[martin14]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

By that logic, Native Americans should take back control of North America, all North Americans should have right of return to whatever Eurpean nation of their ancestry, and the people who occupied the Levant before the Jews should take back their land (spoiler: that's probably the Palestinians).

If the FNs have the miltary or economic power to do it, they should go for it.

If not....

[BeaverFever]

martin14 martin14:

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

The General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947.

Here is what that map looked like:
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/UN_Palestine_Partition_Versions_1947.jpg/230px-UN_Palestine_Partition_Versions_1947.jpg[/img


The Arabs never agreed to this, they went to war. And lost.

Why is this so difficult to understand ?

Because it's retarded and irrelevant. South Korea has never recognized the borders of North Korea, so in your idiotic mind North Korea can legitimately decree whatever territory it wants?