[BeaverFever]

martin14 martin14:

andyt andyt:

Muslims,

More deflection, as usual. You define every internet fail ever invented.

Yes, you dumb shit. Muslims.

Hey Dumb shit, this isn't a Muslim thing, its an African thing, that people from different religions over there do. Arabs and other non-African Muslims don't really do this.

Before 9-11, conservatives used to blow off these female circumcision stories as boring feminist activism, now post-911 suddenly guys like Martin and Fiddle are global womans rights advocates....as long as they can use it for Muslim-bashing, anyway.

[Guy_Fawkes]

I Still can't wrap my head around why someone would want to do this to another person. It's like saying, "Oh you're fat, well if we cut off the tip of your tongue you want enjoy food so much." Then to look to your child and think, well I want to take a basic human joy from you. I just dont get it.

[andyt]

How about when western doctors would do it to prevent female masturbation, not that long ago? The idea of women who enjoy sex being sluts isn't confined to these people. Pretty prevalent in our society during my day, probably still is. This is just an extreme version of that.

[Jabberwalker]

andyt andyt:

Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:

... but ... in the great horse-race of civilizations over the last 1000 years, Islam has come in fourth place and they feel that they should be running the whole show. After all, their prophet has told them so.

Yes. And at the same time we fucked them about pretty good, and now we're getting blowback. You talked about history, you have to include that part.

I've done nothing of the sort.

When those two maniacs were caught in a plot to kill people on Via trains, last year, they were very vocal and adamant about why they did it. They don't like our culture or our way of life, so they have migrated half way around the world to punish us because they consider us to be inherently sinful.

Just who is fucking around whom?

No, sorry. None of us in Canada have done anything to justify that kind of barbarism.

[Guy_Fawkes]

andyt andyt:

How about when western doctors would do it to prevent female masturbation, not that long ago? The idea of women who enjoy sex being sluts isn't confined to these people. Pretty prevalent in our society during my day, probably still is. This is just an extreme version of that.

There were a lot of fucked up things they did to people because they thought psychological problems were just physical problems. Lobotomies, sterilization, hot and cold baths, hell even physical punishments in schools. Still these people were trying, to cure what they thought was a disorder. A woman enjoying sex, is not a disorder and I dont see how it could ever be conceived as such.

[fifeboy]

martin14 martin14:

fifeboy fifeboy:

The practice predates Islam. Martie?, is there anything in the Koran about it? I don't know!

What you don't know could fill a library.


Predates, but nothing changed since Islam arrived in sub saharan Africa.

So they either endorse it, or don't give shit about it.


So, since the UK can confirm 3 - 4000 new cases a year, and the US can write an article about it, you can be sure it is happening in Canada.

I'll type that again, slowly, so the PhDs, high school dropouts, farmers,
and idiots who constantly whine about anything anti muslim will understand:


It is happening in Canada, right now.


So stick that up your apologist asses.

If you think that what you don't know wouldn't fill a library you are an idiot.

What you are telling me is that Islam has done little to stop the practice. This is not good, but Andy now tells us that Islam has called for an end to it. If it were an Islamic practice it would be going in in Indonesia. Is it?

[andyt]

Who is this Islam guy who would put a stop to it? The don't even have a pope. Do we in the west live in a perfect society because Christianity has put a stop to everything evil or ignorant we do?

As pointed out by BF and myself, this is confined to Africa. The Indonesians don't do it, the Pakistanis don't do it, the Arabs don't do it.

[andyt]

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

andyt andyt:

How about when western doctors would do it to prevent female masturbation, not that long ago? The idea of women who enjoy sex being sluts isn't confined to these people. Pretty prevalent in our society during my day, probably still is. This is just an extreme version of that.

There were a lot of fucked up things they did to people because they thought psychological problems were just physical problems. Lobotomies, sterilization, hot and cold baths, hell even physical punishments in schools. Still these people were trying, to cure what they thought was a disorder. A woman enjoying sex, is not a disorder and I dont see how it could ever be conceived as such.

Is masturbation a disorder? Nymphomania? I don't know how old you are, but the idea that good women don't enjoy sex is not something new to me - that's what the sexual revolution was all about in the 60's, and it's still going on. We still have an attitude that women give something up when they have sex, hence the whole valentine's day, bringing flowers, etc etc. It's basic biology. Men want to spread their seed far and wide, but don't want anybody spreading their seed into their women, thank you very much. FMG is taking this to an extreme point, like chastity belts. And it certainly fits in well with Muslim ideas about women.

[Guy_Fawkes]

andyt andyt:

Guy_Fawkes Guy_Fawkes:

andyt andyt:

How about when western doctors would do it to prevent female masturbation, not that long ago? The idea of women who enjoy sex being sluts isn't confined to these people. Pretty prevalent in our society during my day, probably still is. This is just an extreme version of that.

There were a lot of fucked up things they did to people because they thought psychological problems were just physical problems. Lobotomies, sterilization, hot and cold baths, hell even physical punishments in schools. Still these people were trying, to cure what they thought was a disorder. A woman enjoying sex, is not a disorder and I dont see how it could ever be conceived as such.

Is masturbation a disorder? Nymphomania? I don't know how old you are, but the idea that good women don't enjoy sex is not something new to me - that's what the sexual revolution was all about in the 60's, and it's still going on. We still have an attitude that women give something up when they have sex, hence the whole valentine's day, bringing flowers, etc etc. It's basic biology. Men want to spread their seed far and wide, but don't want anybody spreading their seed into their women, thank you very much. FMG is taking this to an extreme point, like chastity belts. And it certainly fits in well with Muslim ideas about women.

I just dont get why people would want to go to those extremes, it would be like a guy getting castrated because he thought he had enough children. I'm only in my 30's and I am aware of what the perception of sexuality was like in the 50's and 40's. It must be because I am so far removed from those barbaric concepts that I cant imagine someone wanting to inflict that onto another person.

[N_Fiddledog]

I was going to try to stay out of this one, because I've been in them before, and know how messed up they get.

However somebody accused me earlier in this thread of thinking all Muslims are evil. I don't, although he might be, because telling such a lie makes him a liar, perhaps an evil liar.

But concerning the subject of FGM - is there a Muslim connection, and does it matter? In my opinion everything anybody has said here so far is true, but nobody is close to The Truth.

By that I mean an understanding that highlights the priority facts to pinpoint the relevant priority of the question 'Is religion relevant to the FGM problem.

FGM pops up all over the place, geographically and historically, as has already been mentioned. It comes in different forms - some merely cosmetic, some as grotesquely, harmful mutilations.

OK, now let's talk Muslims. Stop screaming so you can hear.

There can be medical problems with FGM. If populations move into an area that practice it this becomes a problem for the host population. Something must be done. If there is religious imprimatur to the practice this creates an additional problem that must be addressed if the practice of FGM is going to be controlled.

The reasons for practicing FGM are complex. In the minds of the practioners cultural, moral, practical, or religious grounds may authorize or demand it, or just make it the accepted way to do things.

The writings of Islam do not fundamentally command FGM, but if you practice both and you are looking for precedent in one to authorize the other you can find it.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/442

OK, so try to forget about the whole world and all of history for a sec. Suppose you live in the UK. FGM is a problem. Not just because of health costs. Suppose your Western believe structure demands say equal rights for women, or child protection.

You're dealing with this...

$1:

The first step in stopping FGM is understanding why it's done in the first place, which can vary from society to society. For example, the idea of enforcing the cultural value of female sexual purity by removing the clitoris has been interpreted by some Muslims as consistent with Islamic law. If women suffer health consequences as a result, those are often attributed to God's will.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/2 ... 30519.html

That's a problem, right?

Not all Muslim countries are known for FGM, but there's a beltway through central and northern Africa that is. It's immigrants in the UK are largely Islamic. These represent the bulk of the immigrants in the UK who are bringing in the problem. For a great chunk of them FGM is a geographical, cultural, and religiously authorized behavior.

So wanna fix the problem? Are you ready to notice the 3 factors above? Bigot.

(And yes there have been Imams who have issued Fatwas against FGM. There are Islamic areas where FGM is not practiced. Good boys. But there's still a problem.)

[Guy_Fawkes]

I can agree that Muslim's who practice FGM can be a problem, similarly male circumcision preformed by a moil at a bris can be very problematic (though not nearly as horrifying as FGM).

[N_Fiddledog]

I'm guessing you're thinking Type 1 FMG where it's simply the hood of the clitoris that's removed.

Moving up to Type 2 we're talking "Excision: partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (the labia are "the lips" that surround the vagina)."

Type 3 is where the fun begins.

$1:

Infibulation: narrowing of the vaginal opening through the creation of a covering seal. The seal is formed by cutting and repositioning the inner, or outer, labia, with or without removal of the clitoris.

With that you get dangers of this...

"
recurrent bladder and urinary tract infections;
cysts;
infertility;

an increased risk of childbirth complications and newborn deaths;
the need for later surgeries. For example, the FGM procedure that seals or narrows a vaginal opening (type 3 above) needs to be cut open later to allow for sexual intercourse and childbirth. Sometimes it is stitched again several times, including after childbirth, hence the woman goes through repeated opening and closing procedures, further increasing and repeated both immediate and long-term risks.
"

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

I agree though. That is much more horrifying than what you might encounter after a Bris?

[Xort]

What? Does multiculturalism only extend as far as a food and music?

We should be welcoming this, because different views make us stronger, somehow.

[martin14]

fifeboy fifeboy:

What you are telling me is that Islam has done little to stop the practice. This is not good, but Andy now tells us that Islam has called for an end to it. If it were an Islamic practice it would be going in in Indonesia. Is it?

You relying on andy for anything besides the best locations to shoot your heroin is putting faith in an idiot.

So sorry to destroy your naivete in believing anything he says because
it fits your multicultural delusions.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence ... by_country

$1:

Indonesia (Type I and IV)
FGM is prevalent in Indonesia.[150][151][152] In certain communities of Indonesia, mass female circumcision (khitanan massal) ceremony are organized by local Islamic foundations around Prophet Muhammad’s birthday. Some FGM are Type IV done with a pen knife, others are Type I done with scissors. Two Indonesian nationwide studies in 2003 and 2010 found over 80% of Muslim girls are subjected to cutting, typically newborns through the age of 9. More than 90% of adults claimed they wanted the practice to continue.[151][153]




Historical records suggest female circumcision in Indonesia started and became prevalent with the arrival of Islam in the 13th century as part of its drive to convert people to Islam. In islands of Indonesia, where partial populations converted to Islam in 17th century, FGM has been prevalent in Muslim females only.[154][155] In 2006, FGM was banned by the government; however, FGM/C remained commonplace for women in Indonesia - the world’s largest Muslim nation.[156] In 2010, the Indonesian Health Ministry issued a decree outlining the proper procedure for FGM, which activists claim contradicted the 2006 ruling prohibiting clinics from performing any FGM.[157] In 2013, the Indonesian Ulema Council ruled that it favors FGM, stating that although it is not mandatory, it is still “morally recommended”.[158] The Ulema has been pushing Indonesian government to circumcise girls, claiming it is part of Islamic teachings.[159] Some Indonesian officials, in March 2013, claimed cutting and pricking type circumcision is not FGM.[160]

So, andy has been desperately trying to limit this by saying 'it's an African thing.'

It isn't, it is practised all over Africa, the Middle East, and Asia.
Which is just about the entire Islamic areas.
Open that link and look for yourself. I dare you.

[N_Fiddledog]

Did you see this one Martin?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2012/jamie- ... mic-crime/

They're on your side.

$1:

When it comes to leftists and leftist feminists, of course, the only words we ever hear from them on this issue, when they are confronted by it, is that “Muslims are not the only group that practice FGM.” This tired, lazy and inhumane excuse for inaction shamelessly presupposes that if a sin is committed by someone else, somewhere else, then it somehow justifies doing and saying nothing in the face of a crime being perpetrated on a mass scale right before our eyes.

The bottom line is that Muslims are the principle religious group that practices this sexual violence against women. And if a young girl is a victim of FGM, the chances are that she lives in a Muslim household and in a Muslim culture. And this barbarity is kept alive and legitimized by Islamic theology.