[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Give me a minute to compose my responses.

And I'll read them on Monday. Have a nice weekend!

[DerbyX]

Chumley Chumley:

That is the problem, people have no faith in themselves or thier neighbours.
We aren't competent enough to handle a weapon.
What if I shoot myself in the foot?
The authorities know best.
For a bunch of people who are constantly railing against the government controlling your freedoms, you guys balk at the thought of having to control your freedoms with anything other than ideas on ideals.

Guns aren't magic and they don't require a degree in ballistics to make you capable with one. People need more confidence in the people.

This message has been brought to by the Bring Back The Lynch Mob Society of Canada.

How many innocent people dies from lynch mobs?

Now first off I support gun rights and the ability of people to own guns. That doesn't mean I think anybody who can own a gun is automatically qualified to use one let alone use it in a life or death situation.

Its not a question of faith but of training. Its also a question of being able to keep ones head in a crisis, something that can't be trained. Plenty of people fully competent to handle a weapon panic when suddenly faced with a life or death situation. Even people trained to deal with them can.

Chumley Chumley:

That is it in a nutshell. Do I do nothing and leave it to chance or do I do something, possibly fail, but at least tried.

In alot of situations I agree with helping out. Witness the cop wrestling with the coked up freak as passerbys watched for a few seconds until they intervened to help. That turned out great and nobody died.

In the situation on the bus as described it was simply impossible for anybody to have intervened to save the victim.

chumley chumley:

there is that picture in your minds eye. The average person is just a panic stricken incompetent. You guys are always yammering about how any man is as good another, even in an emergency.
Yet when it comes to violent intervention, the standard changes.

No, I simply state the obvious that your average citizen doesn't have the training or ability to know automatically how to help without collateral damage especially if they are blasting away.

Think about it. How much help would your average citizen be in a medical situation without at least some training? There is a reason why they push CPR and other life saving training for everybody. Thats because they saw that many lives could have been saved that weren't because people lacked the proper training. Do you think we can push combat training the same way because using a firearm in that manner is exactly that.

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Chumley Chumley:

How many innocent people dies from lynch mobs?

The Lynch mob one was a joke. In part.

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

That doesn't mean I think anybody who can own a gun is automatically qualified to use one let alone use it in a life or death situation.

Its not a question of faith but of training. Its also a question of being able to keep ones head in a crisis, something that can't be trained. Plenty of people fully competent to handle a weapon panic when suddenly faced with a life or death situation. Even people trained to deal with them can.

I was being a bit over encompassing in saying anyone.
Not everyone is capable, but I believe the majority of people are. And training is of course vital to proper use of weapons.
But there are plenty of people who would be capable given the opportunity to train with one, and plenty of people who feel (rightly in my opinion) that they should be able to carry a weapon for defense.

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Think about it. How much help would your average citizen be in a medical situation without at least some training? There is a reason why they push CPR and other life saving training for everybody. Thats because they saw that many lives could have been saved that weren't because people lacked the proper training. Do you think we can push combat training the same way because using a firearm in that manner is exactly that.

Perhaps there should be more of a push for people to learn to defend themselves, because more often than not, the cops are there to clean up and take notes, not to prevent a murder.

[roger-roger]

I dont know why people are comparing American gun owners to Canadian ones. Canada does have a gun culture but it is nothing like the US. Another point everyone is forgetting, you never fire a loaded weapon in a crowded room, I dont care if you can shoot the wings off a fly at the gun range. You might hit your target, but your bullet might also go through him or her and hit someone closet to your target. I dont know what greyhounds you guy ride on but most of the ones I have been on have been driven by men well into their 50's. Your average bus driving 50 year old will not be able to shoot a suspect in a bus of screaming passengers.

BTW Derby, the Canadian military has EXCELLENT training, I just suck with hand guns.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

I trust trained police with guns but I don't trust your average citizen who might carry a gun for protection but rarely pratice with it.

I trust the average citizen with a gun far more than I do a lot of cops. Citizens show a lot of restraint when using deadly force whereas too many cops are too eager to use deadly force. You Tube has no end of video to support my point of view.

That says alot about the training of you police. Me, I trust the police more then the public I meet on a day to day basis.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

How many rounds have you fired in training?

In excess of a million, easy. For several years I was popping 800-1000 rounds a day and I can still hear a mouse fart in the next room. Hearing protection is your friend!

My point exactly. Farmore weapons training then any thousand joe average citizens put togeather.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Do you hit your target every time?

It's been years since I've missed anything with a rifle. I'm at the point where I don't fire if I'm not certain of what I'm doing. With a pistol I'm all in the 10 at up to 25 meters with my .45 which is my conceal carry firearm. I also go to the expense of using HydraShok hollow points for target practice since that's the round I keep in my clips.

With a million rounds of practice I should hope so. Only a fraction of civilians would come even close to a fraction of that number.

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Now factor in the fact you are an ex-marine whereas joe average is likely to have little if any firearm training.

Joe Average who qualifies for a carry permit is going to have to pass a training program in every jurisdiction that offers CCW. Some states require the shooting curriculum of the FBI Academy as their standard for qualifying for a CCW. And where most of these permit holders are quite interested and motivated they typically show up for their annual refreshers with clean weapons and attentive attitudes.

A CCW holder is NOT your average person. It's a damned shame you don't have any in Canada or else I'd be able to direct you where to meet up with these folks and let them change your mind.

They would be. Canada had FASC certification. The trouble is that demanding people qualify for firearm permits with some sort of competency test is exactly the kind of gun control thats being denounced as "liberal thuggery". In short order any law requiring competency testing would be viewed as any other gun restriction.

In addition, wide spread C&C usage is open to abuse just like anything alse. The police would become acutely aware of the fact that so many people are packing that even routine traffic stops would be done with guns drawn as we see so often in the states. Why should cops take chances?

While I may agree with the right to bear arms I don't believe that its any type of solution to crime, especially youth crime.

What about highschool? Should highschool students be legally allowed to own and carry firearms to class for protection? How about middle school? You yourself posted about how that 14 year old girl would be alive if it was 30 years ago because the 12 year olds would have been carrtying rifles. There have been shootings in middle school also. Shouldl 12 year olds be allowed to carry a gun for protection?

I think if society is at a state where everybody needs to carry a firearm in day to day life then we have failed drastically.

[DerbyX]

Chumley Chumley:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Chumley Chumley:

How many innocent people dies from lynch mobs?

The Lynch mob one was a joke. In part.

Use the icon.

[DerbyX]

Chumley Chumley:

DerbyX DerbyX:

That doesn't mean I think anybody who can own a gun is automatically qualified to use one let alone use it in a life or death situation.

Its not a question of faith but of training. Its also a question of being able to keep ones head in a crisis, something that can't be trained. Plenty of people fully competent to handle a weapon panic when suddenly faced with a life or death situation. Even people trained to deal with them can.

I was being a bit over encompassing in saying anyone.
Not everyone is capable, but I believe the majority of people are. And training is of course vital to proper use of weapons.
But there are plenty of people who would be capable given the opportunity to train with one, and plenty of people who feel (rightly in my opinion) that they should be able to carry a weapon for defense.

Who gets to determine who is and who isn't. What criteria do we use?

Doesn't htis count as "gun control"?

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

[
In the situation on the bus as described it was simply impossible for anybody to have intervened to save the victim.

Perhaps, but that is for this situation. He focused on his victim and when everyone realized what was happening they all made for the exit. If he had decided to start killing the herd as they scrambled for the door instead, he would have probably killed at least a couple of more, without a handgun.
How long did it take that bus to unload? They were lucky he didn't start poking holes in thier necks as they ran.

I gun will not solve every situation. But the cops weren't there either.
Don't get me wrong. I know several cops. They are good and capable people, but they are most effective at catching criminals who are repeat offenders, but they aren't omnipotent.
They aren't going to feel a disturbance in the force if some freakshow snaps. If you can't defend yourself when you need to defend yourself, then you will be dead and the cops will come along later to tag your corpse.

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Use the icon.

\

They don't have that smilie in part form.

[DerbyX]

Eisensapper Eisensapper:

I dont know why people are comparing American gun owners to Canadian ones. Canada does have a gun culture but it is nothing like the US. Another point everyone is forgetting, you never fire a loaded weapon in a crowded room, I dont care if you can shoot the wings off a fly at the gun range. You might hit your target, but your bullet might also go through him or her and hit someone closet to your target. I dont know what greyhounds you guy ride on but most of the ones I have been on have been driven by men well into their 50's. Your average bus driving 50 year old will not be able to shoot a suspect in a bus of screaming passengers.

BTW Derby, the Canadian military has EXCELLENT training, I just suck with hand guns.

I know for a fact it has excellent training. If I took a bus X-country what are the odds of a CF soldier being on that bus and carrying a firearm?

In addition, I'm more worried about the yahoo with no training whatsoever carrying a gun and sitting on a bus with me.

[DerbyX]

Chumley Chumley:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Use the icon.

\

They don't have that smilie in part form.

Sure they do.

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Chumley Chumley:

DerbyX DerbyX:

That doesn't mean I think anybody who can own a gun is automatically qualified to use one let alone use it in a life or death situation.

Its not a question of faith but of training. Its also a question of being able to keep ones head in a crisis, something that can't be trained. Plenty of people fully competent to handle a weapon panic when suddenly faced with a life or death situation. Even people trained to deal with them can.

I was being a bit over encompassing in saying anyone.
Not everyone is capable, but I believe the majority of people are. And training is of course vital to proper use of weapons.
But there are plenty of people who would be capable given the opportunity to train with one, and plenty of people who feel (rightly in my opinion) that they should be able to carry a weapon for defense.

Who gets to determine who is and who isn't. What criteria do we use?

Doesn't htis count as "gun control"?

For one thing, you get have to pass the training.
For another, you don't get one if you are a criminal.
Yes, it is a form of gun control, but it is one that at least allows honest citizens to have guns, not just criminals.

[DerbyX]

Chumley Chumley:

For one thing, you get have to pass the training.
For another, you don't get one if you are a criminal.
Yes, it is a form of gun control, but it is one that at least allows honest citizens to have guns, not just criminals.

The last time I stated my belief that gun ownership should be denied without passing a competency course of sorts I got called a liberal facsist trying to take rights away from people.

I don't have a problem with gun ownership.

I have a problem with the belief that C&C laws will lower crime in the least and the idea that your random civie gun owner is up to the task of shooting somebody in the course of a crime without tragic results.

Lets face it. Any gun course you have to pass will include the usage of and basic safety. It won't include combat training.