[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

You are holding that somebody armed with a gun would have solved the situation. What if this guy had had a gun?

He didn't. And if he had then you'd have a busload of dead people but you'd be okay with that because no one was accidentally shot by an armed citizen.

[Dayseed]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

You are holding that somebody armed with a gun would have solved the situation. What if this guy had had a gun?

He didn't. And if he had then you'd have a busload of dead people but you'd be okay with that because no one was accidentally shot by an armed citizen.

Derby's right on this one. An armed citizenry isn't the answer. Think for a second Bart, was the Wild West a civilized place or was it a dangerous place? Hmmm....the "Wild" west.....hmmmmm........

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

The victim was pounced on in a surprise attack and stabbed repeatedly in the neck before anybody could even look up let alone pull a gun out, assess the situation and shoot the correct person.

You don't know anyone who carries a gun, do you? You don't know any cops or any ex-military either because there's no end of both that I know who'd have not even had their heart rate rise in such a situation and it would have been over in two seconds or less.

Just because you don't know anyone who has these abilities does not mean that people with these abilities do not exist. Plenty of them do.

Not a joke, Derby, if you're ever down this way I'll take you out shooting and you'll get to meet some of them. I think you'd have a ball.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

You are holding that somebody armed with a gun would have solved the situation. What if this guy had had a gun?

He didn't. And if he had then you'd have a busload of dead people but you'd be okay with that because no one was accidentally shot by an armed citizen.

Sure I have loved it if by happenstance the bus was occupied with a couple of SWAT members packing and fully alert.

The constant suggestion that somehow in every situation like this an armed citizen would "solve" the situation with a single shot is just ludicrous.

I trust trained police with guns but I don't trust your average citizen who might carry a gun for protection but rarely pratice with it.

How many rounds have you fired in training? Do you hit your target every time?

Now factor in the fact you are an ex-marine whereas joe average is likely to have little if any firearm training.

[BartSimpson]

Dayseed Dayseed:

Derby's right on this one. An armed citizenry isn't the answer. Think for a second Bart, was the Wild West a civilized place or was it a dangerous place? Hmmm....the "Wild" west.....hmmmmm........

If you actually knew your history you'd know that crime was actually pretty rare in the old West and in the 19th Century in general.

[DerbyX]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

DerbyX DerbyX:

The victim was pounced on in a surprise attack and stabbed repeatedly in the neck before anybody could even look up let alone pull a gun out, assess the situation and shoot the correct person.

You don't know anyone who carries a gun, do you? You don't know any cops or any ex-military either because there's no end of both that I know who'd have not even had their heart rate rise in such a situation and it would have been over in two seconds or less.

Just because you don't know anyone who has these abilities does not mean that people with these abilities do not exist. Plenty of them do.

Not a joke, Derby, if you're ever down this way I'll take you out shooting and you'll get to meet some of them. I think you'd have a ball.

I grew up in the military so I know loads of people who carry a gun. I know full well that there are many "civilians" out there that are well trained.

The question at hand is what are the odds that they are among the 10 or so bystanders anytime something like this happens?

What about all those shootouts on cops with trained police officers. They get shot at and they empty their clip at the guy and hit nothing. I think joe average on the bus might just of panicked and started firing until his gun ran dry.

Lets suppose somebody was able to pull a gun and fire off a few at the perp before he inflicted the killing blow. Now lets suppose he accidentily killed the victim anyway? What then?

Too many ifs to assume some perfect ending everytime.

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Chumley Chumley:

DerbyX DerbyX:

the odds of anybody being able to intervene in time were "non-existent".

Because they weren't armed.

No. Even the police were saying it wouldn't have made a difference. The attack came without warning. Unless somebody was sitting on the bus physically holding a gun trained on the perp then nothing could be done.

The police preach what they have been taught to believe, that citizens are incapable of taking care of themselves and shouldn't be trusted with any responsibility in the protection of society or citizens other than calling 911. Do you believe yourself incapable of helping someone in a violent situation?

[DerbyX]

Chumley Chumley:

The police preach what they have been taught to believe, that citizens are incapable of taking care of themselves and shouldn't be trusted with any responsibility in the protection of society or citizens other than calling 911. Do you believe yourself incapable of helping someone in a violent situation?

I don't think the police believe that at all. In fact I know of one cop on this forum who doesn't.

I believe I am capable of assisting in a violent situation. I'm also capable of making it worse through no fault of my own.

Do you trust your average citizen to pull out a gun and start blasting away with oyu in the vincinity?

If you do then I'll get the apple, you supply to handgun and I'll see if I can shoot it off your head.

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

[
I trust trained police with guns but I don't trust your average citizen who might carry a gun for protection but rarely pratice with it.

That is the problem, people have no faith in themselves or thier neighbours.
We aren't competent enough to handle a weapon.
What if I shoot myself in the foot?
The authorities know best.
For a bunch of people who are constantly railing against the government controlling your freedoms, you guys balk at the thought of having to control your freedoms with anything other than ideas on ideals.

Guns aren't magic and they don't require a degree in ballistics to make you capable with one. People need more confidence in the people.


This message has been brought to by the Bring Back The Lynch Mob Society of Canada.

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

I believe I am capable of assisting in a violent situation. I'm also capable of making it worse through no fault of my own.

That is it in a nutshell. Do I do nothing and leave it to chance or do I do something, possibly fail, but at least tried.

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Chumley Chumley:

Do you trust your average citizen to pull out a gun and start blasting away with oyu in the vincinity?

there is that picture in your minds eye. The average person is just a panic stricken incompetent. You guys are always yammering about how any man is as good another, even in an emergency.
Yet when it comes to violent intervention, the standard changes.

[BartSimpson]

DerbyX DerbyX:

I trust trained police with guns but I don't trust your average citizen who might carry a gun for protection but rarely pratice with it.

I trust the average citizen with a gun far more than I do a lot of cops. Citizens show a lot of restraint when using deadly force whereas too many cops are too eager to use deadly force. You Tube has no end of video to support my point of view.

DerbyX DerbyX:

How many rounds have you fired in training?

In excess of a million, easy. For several years I was popping 800-1000 rounds a day and I can still hear a mouse fart in the next room. Hearing protection is your friend!

DerbyX DerbyX:

Do you hit your target every time?

It's been years since I've missed anything with a rifle. I'm at the point where I don't fire if I'm not certain of what I'm doing. With a pistol I'm all in the 10 at up to 25 meters with my .45 which is my conceal carry firearm. I also go to the expense of using HydraShok hollow points for target practice since that's the round I keep in my clips.

DerbyX DerbyX:

Now factor in the fact you are an ex-marine whereas joe average is likely to have little if any firearm training.

Joe Average who qualifies for a carry permit is going to have to pass a training program in every jurisdiction that offers CCW. Some states require the shooting curriculum of the FBI Academy as their standard for qualifying for a CCW. And where most of these permit holders are quite interested and motivated they typically show up for their annual refreshers with clean weapons and attentive attitudes.

A CCW holder is NOT your average person. It's a damned shame you don't have any in Canada or else I'd be able to direct you where to meet up with these folks and let them change your mind.

[Chumley]

DerbyX DerbyX:

If you do then I'll get the apple, you supply to handgun and I'll see if I can shoot it off your head.

I don't have a handgun, I am a law abiding citizen

You should take Bart up on his offer though. You might surprise yourself.

[DerbyX]

Give me a minute to compose my responses.

[BartSimpson]

Chumley Chumley:

Do I do nothing and leave it to chance or do I do something, possibly fail, but at least tried.

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

- Theodore Roosevelt.