[N_Fiddledog]

$1:

b) the Israelis (or more accurately the assholes in Likud) have no right to treat the United States as a junior entity that must respond when Israel demands it

Except it's not just about Likud. They're not the only party opposed to the 67 borders.

Currently it's about this:

$1:

The U.S. government, which has veto power over Security Council resolutions, could have voted no and blocked the measure. Instead, Team Obama chose to abstain, reportedly under the direct orders from the president himself, letting the resolution through.

The move has provided tremendous encouragement for Israel’s enemies, including the terror groups Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. They celebrated the Obama measure, declaring that it will lead to Israel’s “isolation” and “boycott.”

$1:

If the Americans under Trump want to wreck their ship of state over there for the sake of a bunch of rabid pro-settlement religious fundamentalist cretins then they're free to do so.

It's not just about the settlements and it's not just about religious fundamentalists. It's about weakening a military advantage they require to exist. However yes, it also about this:

$1:

Last week, the Obama administration abstained on a U.N. resolution condemning Israel. The resolution targeted Israeli “settlements” in disputed lands and announced that two of the holiest sites in Judaism — the Western Wall and the Temple Mount — and the entirety of the Jewish quarter of Jerusalem, were all “Palestinian” lands.

It isn't just Likud that feels that way.

Also the Israeli legal apparatus deals with many of the orthodox Jewish troublemakers as a problem. It's hauling them in front of judges all the time.

The problem with being passive a la Trudeau is you're saying to the enemies of Israel - and they are legion - "go ahead, attack."

As to your affection for Iran. That's so naive it's almost insane.

[Thanos]

As to your self-inflicted terror over Iran, Netanyahu's been repeatedly debunked so many times by his own intelligence and defense people that his claims are laughable. The man is a worse oaf and fraud than the one the Americans elected seven weeks ago.

Whoever separates Canada the most from this insanity has my moral support. And I highly doubt the return to neutrality by a country as light-weight as Canada has emboldened anyone over there, except maybe for the dickwad lefties in the laughable BDS movement.

[N_Fiddledog]

First off though, I'm never sure who you're talking about when you talk about Likud's being hand in glove with "religious fundamentalist cretins."

I had to look it up. I knew they were part of a coalition. I didn't know exactly with who. I don't think you're talking about the secular nationalist Yisrael Beiteinu, so you must mean what Wiki calls the "ultra-orthodox religious party" - Shas.

Their influence is small, and they have also formed coalitions with the social democrats of the Israeli Labor party.

If you're just talking about the orthodox wackos that run around the streets causing problems, they're criminals and no friend of any political party.

[N_Fiddledog]

Concerning your belief in Iran as no danger though that's not even worth debate:





They want ICBMs for a reason.

[BeaverFever]

1). The continued Israeli practice of building settlements and bulldozing Palestinian homes in occupied territory that doesn't belong to Israel under any recognized law is worthy of condemnation. Full Stop.

2) Obama has provided a larger aid package to Israel than any other president Full Stop.

3) Virtually every U.S. administration in the last 30 to 40 years has allowed a resolution critical of Israel, especially settlements. Nixon, Reagan, and Bush Jr. actually voted for resolutions that condemned Israel for certain actions or called for a halt to settlements.

4) No matter what Obama administration says or does or what anyone else says or does, the lying and deluded right wingers will make it out to be Obama comitting a crime against humanity.

[herbie]

Gotta support Israel on everything no matter how assholic it can be on some issues.
After all a real friend wouldn't stop you from driving just because you were drunk. I mean like, my friend/country right or wrong...

The US was fed up with their obstinance. So they abstained. Big deal. The rest of the world slapped Israel.
But here's the real problem. The right is full of those who think the USA has some right to tell everyone on the planet how to act on every issue.

[Freakinoldguy]

Thanos Thanos:

Ronald Reagan abstained multiple times on security council votes against Israel. Obama abstained once. This is funny as fuck because this was the best way possible for Obama to get back at that back-stabbing shit-weasel Netanyahu for fucking Obama up over the last eight years, even after Obama poured more money and weapons into Israel than any other US president since Israel was founded. Fuck Netanyahu, fuck Likud, fuck the American evangelical Christian Zionists praying for Armageddon to occur, and especially fuck the GOP for turning Israel into another Republican constituency.

While that may be true Obama didn't give Israel this money willingly. The truth is that he had no real choice since there was an aid agreement in place and had he broken that agreement it would have been very poor optics for a President that alot of people perceived as a Muslim.

$1:

A 10-Year Military Aid Agreement
In August 2007, the Bush Administration agreed to increase U.S. military assistance to Israel by $6 billion over the following decade. Israel is to receive incremental annual increases of $150 mllion, starting at $2.55 billion in FY2009 and reaching $3.15 billion per year for FY2013-2018.

2009
$2.55 billion
2010
$2.70 billion
2011
$2.85 billion
2012
$3.00 billion
2013-2018
$3.15 billion per year
Israel receives the FMF aid in a lump sum in the first month of the fiscal year. The funds are placed in an interest bearing account and that interest is used to pay down Israel’s debt to the United States, which was $1 billion as of December 2006.

In addition to FMF, Israel also receives money for the joint development of missile defense systems. These amounts have been growing over the years, with the bulk of the funding going to the Arrow program.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... n_aid.html

So it's more than a bit disingenuous to say that Obama "gave" Israel more money than any president before him. He basically had no choice but to honour that Bush administration agreement.

[Thanos]

Ehud Barak, former Israeli PM and about as tough a soldier as one could ever find, repeatedly called Obama the best friend Israel ever had in the White House.

[N_Fiddledog]

Politics.

[andyt]

So the UN isn't legitimate and should be ignored, unless they make a ruling against Israel. In that case, let the wailing and whining begin. Good on Barry for not being a hypocrite.

[BeaverFever]

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Thanos Thanos:

Ronald Reagan abstained multiple times on security council votes against Israel. Obama abstained once. This is funny as fuck because this was the best way possible for Obama to get back at that back-stabbing shit-weasel Netanyahu for fucking Obama up over the last eight years, even after Obama poured more money and weapons into Israel than any other US president since Israel was founded. Fuck Netanyahu, fuck Likud, fuck the American evangelical Christian Zionists praying for Armageddon to occur, and especially fuck the GOP for turning Israel into another Republican constituency.

While that may be true Obama didn't give Israel this money willingly. The truth is that he had no real choice since there was an aid agreement in place and had he broken that agreement it would have been very poor optics for a President that alot of people perceived as a Muslim.

$1:

A 10-Year Military Aid Agreement
In August 2007, the Bush Administration agreed to increase U.S. military assistance to Israel by $6 billion over the following decade. Israel is to receive incremental annual increases of $150 mllion, starting at $2.55 billion in FY2009 and reaching $3.15 billion per year for FY2013-2018.

2009
$2.55 billion
2010
$2.70 billion
2011
$2.85 billion
2012
$3.00 billion
2013-2018
$3.15 billion per year
Israel receives the FMF aid in a lump sum in the first month of the fiscal year. The funds are placed in an interest bearing account and that interest is used to pay down Israel’s debt to the United States, which was $1 billion as of December 2006.

In addition to FMF, Israel also receives money for the joint development of missile defense systems. These amounts have been growing over the years, with the bulk of the funding going to the Arrow program.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... n_aid.html

So it's more than a bit disingenuous to say that Obama "gave" Israel more money than any president before him. He basically had no choice but to honour that Bush administration agreement.

Wrong

Obama signed his own deal for $38B in aid, completely separate from what you quote in your post

$1:

Thu Sep 15, 2016 | 5:22 AM EDT
U.S., Israel sign $38 billion military aid package

(Reuters) - The United States will give Israel $38 billion in military assistance over the next decade, the largest such aid package in U.S. history, under a landmark agreement signed on Wednesday.

https://www.google.ca/amp/mobile.reuter ... ent=safari

[N_Fiddledog]

So basically in September he agreed to send Israel 38 bill providing Israel used it to buy American Military hardware, and I'm going to guess most of that was produced in Democratic districts.

Also he gets to get out without his legacy being sullied because...

$1:

Republican critics accuse him of not being attentive enough to Israel's security, which the White House strongly denies, and of taking too hard of a line with the Israeli leader.

Your link said his advisors warned him he had to worry about his legacy.

[Freakinoldguy]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

Thanos Thanos:

Ronald Reagan abstained multiple times on security council votes against Israel. Obama abstained once. This is funny as fuck because this was the best way possible for Obama to get back at that back-stabbing shit-weasel Netanyahu for fucking Obama up over the last eight years, even after Obama poured more money and weapons into Israel than any other US president since Israel was founded. Fuck Netanyahu, fuck Likud, fuck the American evangelical Christian Zionists praying for Armageddon to occur, and especially fuck the GOP for turning Israel into another Republican constituency.

While that may be true Obama didn't give Israel this money willingly. The truth is that he had no real choice since there was an aid agreement in place and had he broken that agreement it would have been very poor optics for a President that alot of people perceived as a Muslim.

$1:

A 10-Year Military Aid Agreement
In August 2007, the Bush Administration agreed to increase U.S. military assistance to Israel by $6 billion over the following decade. Israel is to receive incremental annual increases of $150 mllion, starting at $2.55 billion in FY2009 and reaching $3.15 billion per year for FY2013-2018.

2009
$2.55 billion
2010
$2.70 billion
2011
$2.85 billion
2012
$3.00 billion
2013-2018
$3.15 billion per year
Israel receives the FMF aid in a lump sum in the first month of the fiscal year. The funds are placed in an interest bearing account and that interest is used to pay down Israel’s debt to the United States, which was $1 billion as of December 2006.

In addition to FMF, Israel also receives money for the joint development of missile defense systems. These amounts have been growing over the years, with the bulk of the funding going to the Arrow program.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... n_aid.html

So it's more than a bit disingenuous to say that Obama "gave" Israel more money than any president before him. He basically had no choice but to honour that Bush administration agreement.

Wrong

Obama signed his own deal for $38B in aid, completely separate from what you quote in your post

$1:

Thu Sep 15, 2016 | 5:22 AM EDT
U.S., Israel sign $38 billion military aid package

(Reuters) - The United States will give Israel $38 billion in military assistance over the next decade, the largest such aid package in U.S. history, under a landmark agreement signed on Wednesday.

https://www.google.ca/amp/mobile.reuter ... ent=safari

Did you even read the article before telling me I'm wrong.

$1:

The $38 billion memorandum of understanding covers U.S. fiscal years 2019-2028 and succeeds the current $30 billion MOU signed in 2007, which expires at the end of fiscal 2018.

"Prime Minister Netanyahu and I are confident that the new MOU will make a significant contribution to Israel’s security in what remains a dangerous neighborhood," Obama said in a written statement.

The agreement was signed at the State Department by U.S. Undersecretary of State Thomas Shannon and by Jacob Nagel, acting head of Netanyahu’s national security council.

It's a memorandum of understanding and if implemented will succeed the agreement dated 2007 which means he hasn't given them anymore money than what was promised by the Bush administration. This new agreement is for 2019-2028 when Obama will be long gone from office.

[BeaverFever]

You tried to suggest that Obama's aid to Israel was simply an obligation he inherited from Bush, perhaps reluctantly, which is wrong.

[N_Fiddledog]

BeaverFever BeaverFever:

1). The continued Israeli practice of building settlements and bulldozing Palestinian homes in occupied territory that doesn't belong to Israel under any recognized law is worthy of condemnation. Full Stop.

Now let's talk about this.

First of all "Full Stop" my ass.

Secondly the territory is not occupied it's disputed.

$1:

History, of course, tells a different story. There is no “Palestinian” people or “homeland.” There are Arabs whose historical homeland is the Arabian Peninsula. Any Arab living elsewhere is the descendant of invaders, colonizers, occupiers, and immigrants. There are no “occupied territories” or “borders,” but rather contested territories which are bounded by the 1967 armistice line, and the disposition of which will be decided through a negotiated settlement. The “West Bank” is a euphemism for the historical Jewish districts of Judea and Samaria. Jerusalem is not an Arab city, but for three thousand years has been the capital of the Jewish people, who have inhabited it continuously. The “settlements” are not colonial outposts created at the expense of their rightful owners, but towns and cities in the ancient Jewish homeland, most of them on land purchased from Arab landowners happy to make a profit on such barren tracts.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/265263/ ... e-thornton

$1:

The Palestinian Authority was created as a result of the Oslo Accords. By walking away from that agreement, both in terms rejecting terrorism and acting unilaterally, the Palestinian Authority have done away with the foundational document which legalizes their existence. By acquiescing to unilateral Palestinian actions and revising the basis of Palestinian-Israeli peace, Kerry has shown that U.S. diplomacy and commitments can never be trusted.

Law: The West Bank and Jerusalem are technically disputed territories, rather than occupied Palestinian land. That is why the Oslo Accords called for bilateral negotiations. While Kerry talks about the "1967 lines," he means the 1949 Armistice lines. (When complaining about Israeli resorts on the Dead Sea, Kerry appears not to realize the 1949 Armistice lines make Israel littoral to the Dead Sea). This reflects ignorance among diplomats rising to the very top. Kerry is also confused about settlements. If it is illegal to build on disputed land, then all building, be it by Israelis or Palestinians, should be treated similarly. To suggest Jews cannot live in disputed land, as Kerry does, is akin to supporting religious apartheid. Kerry's notion of mutuality when it comes to "natural growth" is bizarre. Israel is a sovereign state. The Palestinians are not.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/what- ... 7Y.twitter