[Mustang1]

stemmer stemmer:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

And yet Toyota isn't in bankruptcy protection. More immaterial fluff. This is largely GM's fault and the blame shouldn't be heaped upon the global economic downturn - it didn't cause the junk products, crappy reliability or mismanaged products.

The fact remains. Toyota's sales are also down...

As far as crappy products I'd put a GM/Chevy or Chrysler truck against any truck Toyota has to offer.... And I would hardly consider the Corvette, Mailibu, Impala or Monte Carlo crappy

The fact remains - Toyota isn't in bankruptcy protection. Why not stick to the thread's topic instead of constantly injecting your subjective fluff?

And they are crappy products (when compared to many foreign competitors) - a couple of weeks ago the National Post did a great treatment of GM's woes and leading business experts (one was from Ivey) stated that past unreliable products created a negative perception regarding GM's cars. I posted that and you didn't respond then, nor do i expect you to counter it now with anything significant now. I guess the Canadian Tire crowd is silent when it comes to actually looking at the auto industry. Maybe they can recommend a good tire cleaner?

[Mustang1]

poquas poquas:

stemmer stemmer:

The W bodied GMs are some of the best cars built (Impala, Lumina, Pontiac Grand Prix, Buick Century, etc)...

It seems the sales to the public and the phenomenal loss of money disagrees with you.

And there's the proof. If GM had decent past products, IT WOULDN'T BE IN THIS POSITION NOW! It's interesting that some here can't accept reality.

[ASLplease]

this is not the end of GM.

[stemmer]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

I guess the Canadian Tire crowd is silent when it comes to actually looking at the auto industry. Maybe they can recommend a good tire cleaner?

It appears comprehension skills are not in your making and yet once again you make claims about me & Canadian Tire that are not true... Why do you engage in this nonsense...???

[stemmer]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

poquas poquas:

stemmer stemmer:

The W bodied GMs are some of the best cars built (Impala, Lumina, Pontiac Grand Prix, Buick Century, etc)...

It seems the sales to the public and the phenomenal loss of money disagrees with you.

And there's the proof. If GM had decent past products, IT WOULDN'T BE IN THIS POSITION NOW! It's interesting that some here can't accept reality.

Let me remind you it was just this year Toyota surpased GM... For a company you claim wasn't selling cars they still ranked #2 in the world, just barely behind Toyota. GM's problems were one of legacy costs consisting of healthcare, pensions and a very high hourly rate for it's workers... These are legacy costs Toyota and other upstart auto companies do not have...

[Mustang1]

stemmer stemmer:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

I guess the Canadian Tire crowd is silent when it comes to actually looking at the auto industry. Maybe they can recommend a good tire cleaner?

It appears comprehension skills are not in your making and yet once again you make claims about me & Canadian Tire that are not true... Why do you engage in this nonsense...???

Project much? Practice what you preach.

[Mustang1]

stemmer stemmer:

Let me remind you it was just this year Toyota surpased GM... For a company you claim wasn't selling cars they still ranked #2 in the world, just barely behind Toyota. GM's problems were one of legacy costs consisting of healthcare, pensions and a very high hourly rate for it's workers... These are legacy costs Toyota and other upstart auto companies do not have...

GM sold a lot of cars based on deep discounts - again, had you actually read or comprehended any of the non-Canadian Tire reports, you may have arrived at the conclusion that sales volume didn't always guarantee market success. If it had, GM wouldn't be in bankruptcy protection. What part escapes you? Besides spelling ("surpased"?) - if you're going to play grammar police, you may want to clean up your own act first.

[OnTheIce]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

poquas poquas:

stemmer stemmer:

The W bodied GMs are some of the best cars built (Impala, Lumina, Pontiac Grand Prix, Buick Century, etc)...

It seems the sales to the public and the phenomenal loss of money disagrees with you.

And there's the proof. If GM had decent past products, IT WOULDN'T BE IN THIS POSITION NOW! It's interesting that some here can't accept reality.

I agree.

And keep in mind, I currently have 2 Pontiac's in my driveway.

GM kept producing mid-grade cars, ignoring obvious flaws with engines and providing horrible service to boot. Their reliability was poor. Fit and finish was terrible.

I've had a whole bunch of GM's, including a Pontiac Sunbird, Cadillac STS, Cavalier Z24, Chev Blazer and the list goes on. When the interior of a 99 Grand Prix looks strikingly similar to that of a 1991 Sunbird, you start to understand why people grew tired of GM's products.

[PluggyRug]

I have owned Ford cars most of my life which were generally trouble free. When I moved to Whitby (near Oshawa) I bought a Pontiac Tempest (support your local industry and all that)....well.... it was the most unreliable car I ever owned.

On top of a crappy product GM's attitude was 'so what' you must be ill treating the vehicle.
Drivers side door fell off (inadequate hinge pins)
Lost steering fluid twice (crossed thread in rack)
Braking system faulty (incorrectly fitted vacuum cylinder)
Paint peeled off (poor quality undercoat)
Muffler fell off after 1 year (paper thin steel)
Steering wheel came loose (missing locking ring)
Tail light turn indicator bulbs lasted only 2 months (no fix)
Passenger door fell of (same as above)

...and the final straw...one of the cruise control buttons on the steering wheel flew off and caused damage to my eye. The following day it was up for sale.

There must be many like myself.
Ford once again received my business.

I now own an F150 Lariat, Focus ZX3 and oh yes a Honda VFR 800.

[SprCForr]

To provide the other side of the coin:

I've always owned GM products (predominately Chevy's) and always will. I've had no serious failures with any of them. There were some I liked more than others, but over all I was satisifed with all of them. I didn't buy the trendy stuff except a Trans Am, but went with solid options over cup holders and stereo's. The biggest cost I've incurred is buying rubber for my truck, but anyone who owns a dually knows what I'm saying here. I (the qualifier is below ) won't own anything else.

Mrs SprCForr on the other hand isn't brand loyal and will pick a vehicle with cupholders just so and heated seats. Since I owe her a car, heaven knows what will end up parked beside the Impala. Her car, her decision.

Anyone know how to do that subliminal thing? <You want a Camaro SS...you want a...>

[poquas]

SprCForr SprCForr:

Anyone know how to do that subliminal thing? <You want a Camaro SS...you want a...>

As a matter of fact......

[Robair]

Some of these posts remind me of that movie Gung Ho with Michael Keaton...

[martin14]

poquas poquas:

SprCForr SprCForr:

Anyone know how to do that subliminal thing? <You want a Camaro SS...you want a...>

As a matter of fact......

When you get the step by step plan, let me know

The wife is making noise about buying an SLK.

[Yogi]

Since the 'new company' is officially Government Motors, will this be the insignia we will see on all future vehicles???

[Mustang1]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

I agree.

And keep in mind, I currently have 2 Pontiac's in my driveway.

GM kept producing mid-grade cars, ignoring obvious flaws with engines and providing horrible service to boot. Their reliability was poor. Fit and finish was terrible.

I've had a whole bunch of GM's, including a Pontiac Sunbird, Cadillac STS, Cavalier Z24, Chev Blazer and the list goes on. When the interior of a 99 Grand Prix looks strikingly similar to that of a 1991 Sunbird, you start to understand why people grew tired of GM's products.

I've owned GM products too - again, my issue is with corporate group-think that produces bad products for consumers. Who's actually in support of this? I don't want to see people out of work for GM's mistakes, but they are, in fact GM's mistakes, and now it's come back to bite them in the bankrupted ass.