Zipperfish Zipperfish:
What are they going to do--handcuff the pastor and throw him in jail? Shut down the church and all the local charity work it supports? A church isn't the same as a coffee shop refusing to serve gays.
What gay man in their right mind would be a Christian anyways? God's instructions for practciing male homosexuals are quite explicit in the Bible: they are to be put to death.
Sometimes I just can't figure people out.
First. Like I already said. I think church's have the right to refuse. I was simply suggesting this case is unique as of the state status of the Church of England. I think its reasonable to argue that in this day of age no church should have official state status and special political patronage appointments (like the Church of England gets in the House of Lords) and taxpayer funding for their school. But its a legacy thing. I think the anointment of female bishops and performance of same-sex marriages could be argued as something the Church of England (but only them) could be required to do if they wish to maintain their status quo as a state church. If they want the freedom to not have female bishops or perform same-sex weddings than give up their state status. Pretty common sense to me.
The latter half of your comments are outright foolish. There's a lot of talk about "cherry picking" verses on the Bible. All sides are guilty of it. However your assumptions are very limited and narrow.
It is not insane for a gay man to be a Christian. Its also not against Christian teachings to be an LGBT straight supporter and support same-sex marriage while being a devout Christian. Why? Well its interpretation of the Bible.
1) Leviticus. The most common verse anti-gay Christians throw out there is:
Leviticus 20:13 Leviticus 20:13:
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Pretty damning and straight forward I'll give you that. However, consider these other "abominations" listed in Leviticus as well:
Leviticus 11:10 Leviticus 11:10:
And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you
Leviticus 19:19 Leviticus 19:19:
Do not plant your field with two different kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven from two different kinds of thread.
Alrighty, so on par with homosexual gay sex being an abomination, you're also going to be cast straight to Hell for eating shellfish, wearing clothes of two or more types of material, or planting two different kinds of crops.
Its called context I actually recently studies this in an English class I'm currently in. First of all, most Christians realize the Old Testament (OT) is not something we follow to the letter anymore. Its metaphorical stories about the Jews and people of this time period. Leviticus, in particular, is a chapter concerned with the obsession of purity that the Heretic Jews of this region and this time espoused. Leviticus is also full of endless verses condemning women for their periods, for being "dirty" giving birth and all these rituals of isolating themselves after they've touched something or if they give birth to a girl she must go through a period of purification for twice as long as a male birth. A lot of the Old Testament is full of stories that pertain to the culture of the peoples at the time and have no bearing on our lives today.
2) Sodom and Gomorrah
Genesis 19:4-7 Genesis 19:4-7:
Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.” So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly!
The other classic line thrown out by anti-gay Christians. It is clear that sexual misconduct is a major sin and part of the reason God destroyed the city. However, many theologians and scholars have argued quite well that the real taboo about this whole story is the issue of hospitality. Lot had entertained guests within the city without the knowledge of the elders. He refused to introduce them to the elders. The word
yada in Hebrew means know(s) and usually refers to sexuality in the Bible, but in this circumstance it means to acquaint. The culture of the time considered it very sinful to have guests without the permission of the elders.
Also, its been well argued the sin wasn't the homosexual conduct but rather the gang rape of the angels by the immoral men of the cities. Whether that gang rape was gay or straight. But preachers sum it up in nice simple bow-tie terms as it being God's condemnation of homosexuality and fail to acknowledge the major issue of hospitality in this Genesis story.
3) Old Testament in General
We don't stone people anymore. We don't allow for polygamous marriages anymore. A host of moral codes and punishments outlined in the OT are not viewed as realistic today. Any Christian or pastor that claims to believe the Bible to its very concrete word is lying and is a fool.
Jesus Christ came to this world and died on the Cross to start a New Covenant. His sacrifice on the cross was to forgive all our sins but to also push the world forward into a new era. His Ultimate Sacrifice forever ended the need to sacrifice lambs or any of that other stuff of the past. He was the lamb that died for us. Therefore, while there are many useful metaphorical lessons in the OT, the NT and Christ's life turned the page on that chapter (pardon the pun).
So Christians pointing to verses in the OT to defend their anti-gay beliefs are grasping at straws.
4) Jesus Christ never uttered one word about homosexuality.
In fact, Jesus associated himself with the outcasts of society. He reached out to the guy with leprosy. He talked to Mary Magdeline (prostitute) at the fountain when everyone else shunned her. He took on the Romans and their unjust tax collection. He was an advocate of the poor.
Christ was the furthest thing from a defender of the establishment. He never spoke on homosexuality and it is my sincere belief as a Christian that when He returns one day (whether in my life or thousands of years from now) he will shake His head in shame at the prejudice of His church and the perversion of the Scripture that has been done in His name.
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If there was one clear cut belief and take on religion we wouldn't have the Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox divide and dozens of denominations under that. Christians worldwide differ greatly on many aspects of the Bible and rituals. However they're all still Christians. Why?
Because the foundation of Christianity, the essence of it, is the belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God who came to this earth some odd 2,000 years ago to die on the Cross for our sins thus making the ultimate Sacrifice. Also, that He will return someday at an hour, day and year no man will ever predict again someday.
Everything else is a matter of Scripture and interpretation. There is many websites that do a stand up job at defusing the Christian Right's anti-gay talking points. There's also an increasing amount of Christians who are adopting this interpreation of their belief and support same-sex marriage:
The Los Angeles Times The Los Angeles Times:
Although most religious groups have opposed same-sex marriage on theological grounds, the current poll found that their members have different views. Majorities of Jewish, 83%, white mainline Protestants, 62%, white Catholics, 58%, and Latino Catholics, 56%, said they support gay marriage.
More:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow ... z2wQdCD8nG I'll leave it there. No offence Zip, but your quite off the mark on this one. My experience growing up as a Baptist Christian was overwhelmingly negative. I don't attend church to this day. Once my parents accepted and embraced me they stopped attending church as well. After working through my hurt and anger though I realized that God wasn't the one inflicting the pain on me. It was men. Men capable of much sin and injustice. Mere men who perverted His Scripture to further their own prejudiced agenda. Once I was able to make that distinction I made my slow trek back to becoming a Christian.
I will not allow these mere men to strip me of my heritage and my identity as a Christian going back countless generations. I don't know if I'll ever find a church to call home again, but I sure as heck will advocate for the inclusion of LGBT Christians in the Christian community and defend our presence and our supporters as NOT out of tune with Scripture, but rather very much in tune with the nuances of the Bible, interpretation and the focus on Christ's love and acceptance of society's most marginalized.
So yah, I'm a gay man and I am a (non-denominational/non attending) Christian. There's millions of gay Christians like me. And I can assure you -- we aren't crazy. We are't hypocrites. And we don't cherry pick the Bible. Our former oppressors on the right are the ones who embody those qualities.
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Bart, I get what you're trying to do. 
