[ridenrain]

I guess it depends on how dumb is dumb.

[dino_bobba_renno]

Scape Scape:

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

While I can see your point on the Manley report, to most average Canadians it will be seen as a fairly non-partisan document despite the fact that the Conservatives commissioned it. ...
You may see things differently but I’m not talking about you voting, I’m talking about the average Canadian Joe who can’t be bothered to even watch the news most nights.

I call BS. Sorry Derb but I have to pipe in.

You mean to say that joe six pack, most who couldn't even tell you the name of the current liberal leader, is going to know who the fuck Manley is? Sorry, that shit don't fly. 1st they won't care about any report anyway and 2nd if their eyes haven't glazed over and turned the channel already will have already made up their minds on the issue of in or out. So saying some report to parliament is going to have any impact on their opinion is nothing but hyperbole.

\

I'm not saying that the average Canadian is some dimwit off the Trailer Park Boys and if you don't think most people know who Manley is you sure aren't giving the Liberals much credit.

[Scape]

I know for a fact most people don't want to know and actively avoid discussion of a political nature. That's an abundant fact of life and if what you're saying is most people even know, let alone give a dam who Manley is your nuttier than a snickers bar. Keep in mind that the average Canadian is not a TPB but rather they just don't care. The ship of state, as far as they are concerned, runs itself and to them it is at best an amusing/befuddling/frustrating sideshow. That is not to say they are impaired mentally at all, most people don't like to do taxes for example and defer the whole burden off to some place like H&R block when they could easily do it themselves and save a chunk of change but would rather avoid the headache. Does this mean they can't wrap their head around the idea of taxes or that they have no respect for the fundamental reasons for the taxes to begin with? No. So saying the voter that doesn't know who a liberal leader is somehow a slight vs the liberal party is just as much of a crock.

[dino_bobba_renno]

Afghanistan leaves Dion cornered

What was I saying about being cornered. My god even the Star agrees with me.

[dino_bobba_renno]

Scape Scape:

I know for a fact most people don't want to know and actively avoid discussion of a political nature. That's an abundant fact of life and if what you're saying is most people even know, let alone give a dam who Manley is your nuttier than a snickers bar. Keep in mind that the average Canadian is not a TPB but rather they just don't care. The ship of state, as far as they are concerned, runs itself and to them it is at best an amusing/befuddling/frustrating sideshow. That is not to say they are impaired mentally at all, most people don't like to do taxes for example and defer the whole burden off to some place like H&R block when they could easily do it themselves and save a chunk of change but would rather avoid the headache. Does this mean they can't wrap their head around the idea of taxes or that they have no respect for the fundamental reasons for the taxes to begin with? No. So saying the voter that doesn't know who a liberal leader is somehow a slight vs the liberal party is just as much of a crock.

Are you honestly saying that most people don’t know who John Manley is? Wow, and you think I’m nutty. Just a question, if a Liberal leadership race was held today between Dion, Ignatieff, Rea and Manley who do think would win. I can bet you a dollar to a donut that it would be Manley for the most part because Manley is a fairly popular guy with a pretty big name in politics.

[ShepherdsDog]

I don't know. I think Iggy appeals more because he's a lot more centered in his political and economic views. Now that he's been reacquainted with Canada and Canadians he's more appealing. Chances are he could take some support away from the CPC ......those who were traditional PC supporters, rather than the Alliance/Reform factions.

[Scape]

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Are you honestly saying that most people don’t know who John Manley is?

To the people who read on a routine basis the Star editorials or National post? No. To the other 99% of the population who don't track politics on a daily basis? Hell yes. If you think it's otherwise get your head examined.

dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:

Just a question, if a Liberal leadership race was held today between Dion, Ignatieff, Rea and Manley who do think would win.

Whoever runs the best campaign that doesn't allow his ego to cancel himself out in the last runoff. *coff* Rea*coff*Iggy*coff*. Amazed you didn't pick Goodale.

[DerbyX]

Group response #2

For Scape: No problem on you jumping in and thanks for bringing up a point I had not even considered. I've debating politics on this forum for so long I simply assumed everybody was aware of all the issues like I am. A quick poll of my 15 coworkers revealed only 2 had known about the Manley report, the rest nada. Neither sided with harper.

For RR: Experts? I hope you are joking. The "experts" told bush the Americans would be greeted as liberators and that shock and awe firepower would have them surrendering.

We have "experts" explaining global warming to you. Do you believe them?

You have "experts" denying it is a problem.

John Manley and the committee are no more experts then I am and quit efrankley the "expert" we put in charge, Karzai, has been saying to negotiate with the Taliban and give them a voice in the gov't. The only problem is they won't do that as long as foreign troops are in country.

There are no real experts and there is not one single white westerner who is anywhere close to knowing thing one about it. How manley figures an additional 1000 troops will solve the problem I have no idea. Perhaps its just the fact that support is coming from elsewhere to give a morale boost is what he is counting on.

For Dino:

1) Flaming. I respond in kind. To good intelligent debate I will respond as such but when posters resort to prejorative terms like Librano or leftards then they aren't being cordial so neither will I. You have seen my previous examples of said debates but as long as you speak to me with the same respect you want returned we won''t have any problem.

2) Election. Its your opinion that its a bad call for Dion to push an election over Afghanistan but I disagree and we will have to agree to disagree. The Star may be reporting thats its a bad call but Dion made his stance and its far better then an endless war against an insurgency that if it wasn't beaten in the first year won't ever be. I don't believe for a second that the bulk of the Liberal supporters support Harper over this.

In the end, even if we fight an election there is very little chance for Harper to win a majority. For the moment lets assume he wins another minority. He will still have the same problem, namely that he must ask another party to support his Afghan proposal. Since the bloc and NDP will not he must know ask a party leader he likely spent the last few months insulting for support.

Harper isn't thinking about that I bet but rather hoping Canada will give him a majority. We won't.

3) Party division over Afghanistan? As divided as the CPC was over SSM or abortion? There are a few swing votes but lets face it. When it comes crunch time they will realize they are all in this togeather.

4) Blame for the election. A strong leader would be ready and willing to accept blame not try and shift it to somebody else. You are right that Dion could have offered a counter-proposal and beat Harper to the punch. Perhaps he did and we just aren't hearing about it. Who knows. Its still Harpers responsibility because it was his job to make the necessary deal to get it done just as its his job to get the deal to get the budget done. He is PM. It was Martins responsibility when he was PM so why wouldn't it be Harpers?

Could Dion have offered a solution that Harper would have accepted? Perhaps. This simply highlights what I have said for many years in that the Liberals and Conservatives fail Canadians in any minority gov't because they cannot work togeather. We always end up with a minority group of Canadians getting concessions for its supporters. We never see the 2 largest supported parties enacting legislation respresentative of the most Canadians.

[Normalguy]

You know, doing what is right is easy. The problem is knowing what is right.

--Lyndon B. Johnson

We in Canada need to understand that there is no such thing as a quick and cheap peace just as there is no such thing as a cheap and quick war. On and on we drone about he says, she says when at the end of the day It is utterly immoral to commit and spend the lives of our men and women to a cause that we are not prepared to see through to the finish.

The partisan politics of the opposition parties makes me ill, particularly the Liberal party as it was on their watch that Canada was committed to fight the insurgency.

in·sur·gen·cy (n-sûrjn-se)insurgency is a movement - a political effort with a specific aim. This sets it apart from both guerilla warfare and terrorism, as they are both methods available to pursue the goals of the political movement.

Just thought I would point that out so that we know what we're on about. Remember Beslan and what Osama Bin Laden said about that attack being the "Model" for his palns in the west. Bearing in mind that while a being murderous, religious zealot, he tries to never lie.

Ask yourselves if we as a state have the will to put this down? Frankly, I doubt it because we are uncomfortable with the notion that there might actually be a price to pay. All the talk, at the end of the day, means nothing, and we will have wasted the blood and treasure already spent. Some of Canada's finest men and women ( Yes, some friends of mine) have died or been wounded and Dion and Layton are making politcal hay, standing on their corpses and shatterred lives and those of other Canadian soldiers. The Liberal party is the most disfunctional as the leadership continues to think in terms of a timeline (cheap and easy) vs a continuum (necessary to achieve success) and it simply repels me that the electorate has not reigned them in. The leadership of the insurgents understands this, reads our papers, watches our TV news and monitors other media...like this! I would like the debate to be about success or failure not about left and right. WE ARE THERE NOW, we can make a difference if we have the will. Equally, we can do something else rather than succeed (please note I have not said victory. Victory in an insurgency is a misnomer) and return to being the hand wringing belly button staring bunch of shop keepers that we are known as...Nice, but really nothing special. That suits alot of Canadians but the silent majority rankles rather than rails and apathy may again be the Canadian way.

"If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism." --Thomas Sowell

[dino_bobba_renno]

Normalguy Normalguy:

You know, doing what is right is easy. The problem is knowing what is right.

--Lyndon B. Johnson

We in Canada need to understand that there is no such thing as a quick and cheap peace just as there is no such thing as a cheap and quick war. On and on we drone about he says, she says when at the end of the day It is utterly immoral to commit and spend the lives of our men and women to a cause that we are not prepared to see through to the finish.

The partisan politics of the opposition parties makes me ill, particularly the Liberal party as it was on their watch that Canada was committed to fight the insurgency.

in·sur·gen·cy (n-sûrjn-se)insurgency is a movement - a political effort with a specific aim. This sets it apart from both guerilla warfare and terrorism, as they are both methods available to pursue the goals of the political movement.

Just thought I would point that out so that we know what we're on about. Remember Beslan and what Osama Bin Laden said about that attack being the "Model" for his palns in the west. Bearing in mind that while a being murderous, religious zealot, he tries to never lie.

Ask yourselves if we as a state have the will to put this down? Frankly, I doubt it because we are uncomfortable with the notion that there might actually be a price to pay. All the talk, at the end of the day, means nothing, and we will have wasted the blood and treasure already spent. Some of Canada's finest men and women ( Yes, some friends of mine) have died or been wounded and Dion and Layton are making politcal hay, standing on their corpses and shatterred lives and those of other Canadian soldiers. The Liberal party is the most disfunctional as the leadership continues to think in terms of a timeline (cheap and easy) vs a continuum (necessary to achieve success) and it simply repels me that the electorate has not reigned them in. The leadership of the insurgents understands this, reads our papers, watches our TV news and monitors other media...like this! I would like the debate to be about success or failure not about left and right. WE ARE THERE NOW, we can make a difference if we have the will. Equally, we can do something else rather than succeed (please note I have not said victory. Victory in an insurgency is a misnomer) and return to being the hand wringing belly button staring bunch of shop keepers that we are known as...Nice, but really nothing special. That suits alot of Canadians but the silent majority rankles rather than rails and apathy may again be the Canadian way.

"If you are not prepared to use force to defend civilization, then be prepared to accept barbarism." --Thomas Sowell

*stands up and applauds*

[Normalguy]

Ubi concordia, ibi victoria [Where is the unity, there is the victory.]