[gonavy47]

Peacekeeping is a moot point when you don't have the mandate or force to back it up. Our wonderful leaders in the UN and Canada stood by with their collective thumbs up their ass when the genocide was going on in Rwanda. Our peacekeeping force on the ground got to witness it happen. Report after report was sent to the UN and nothing was done. So don't wave peacekeeping in my face. It doesn't cut it.

[DerbyX]

Iraq is a horrible clusterfuck so don't wave war in my face either.

[gonavy47]

DerbyX DerbyX:

So winning the Nobel peace prize wasn't respect? I think you are relying too much on our lack of respect garnered as our deployments waned throughout the 70s and 80s.

The Aussies are certainly not a regional power and have no more ability to back themselves up with force then we do. In fact their ability as well as ours is almost dependant entirely on the US and quite frankly thats not respect I need nor want.

Again you consider force = respect. I'd say the countries that are buying into that are the very countries we seem to be criticizing lately.

They also gave Obama the Nobel Peace Prize, after 2 weeks in office, because he's black. So much for respect.

[gonavy47]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Iraq is a horrible clusterfuck so don't wave war in my face either.

WE aren't in Iraq!

[uwish]

DerbyX DerbyX:

So winning the Nobel peace prize wasn't respect? I think you are relying too much on our lack of respect garnered as our deployments waned throughout the 70s and 80s.

The Aussies are certainly not a regional power and have no more ability to back themselves up with force then we do. In fact their ability as well as ours is almost dependant entirely on the US and quite frankly thats not respect I need nor want.

Again you consider force = respect. I'd say the countries that are buying into that are the very countries we seem to be criticizing lately.

well, Obama won this same prize with only a few weeks in office, how respectable is that?

Nobel isn't the be all and end all. Not anymore.

EDIT: Someone beet me to that point. I must click submit faster!

[DerbyX]

gonavy47 gonavy47:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Iraq is a horrible clusterfuck so don't wave war in my face either.

WE aren't in Iraq!

So what? Its a counterpoint to the idea that war is respectful and peacekeeping is not.

[DerbyX]

uwish uwish:

DerbyX DerbyX:

So winning the Nobel peace prize wasn't respect? I think you are relying too much on our lack of respect garnered as our deployments waned throughout the 70s and 80s.

The Aussies are certainly not a regional power and have no more ability to back themselves up with force then we do. In fact their ability as well as ours is almost dependant entirely on the US and quite frankly thats not respect I need nor want.

Again you consider force = respect. I'd say the countries that are buying into that are the very countries we seem to be criticizing lately.

well, Obama won this same prize with only a few weeks in office, how respectable is that?

Nobel isn't the be all and end all. Not anymore.

EDIT: Someone beet me to that point. I must click submit faster!

You may think that but others don't and it hardly counters the fact that back then Canada did have respect and influence that didn't come from the barrel of a gun.

[gigs]

gonavy47 gonavy47:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Iraq is a horrible clusterfuck so don't wave war in my face either.

WE aren't in Iraq!

We would be if Iggy was in charge.

[DerbyX]

Or Harper.

[Akhenaten]

$1:

hardly counters the fact that back then Canada did have respect and influence

When was this? The only time we ever had the illusion of respect or influence to my memory was whenever we were on board with other more influential nations towards some common goal (South Africa for example). We in turn were able our name out there but to my mind there is a void of international issues we ever spearheaded that ever got us any respect or influence. Rwanda was a good example. We screamed over and over again about this and the UN dismissed us and decided they couldn't determine if what they were looking at was a genocide or not. If other muchmore influential nations were making the same noise AND willing to put up the troops we couldn't they would've possessed much more influence on the matter.

The only influence there is is money, so the only time we're ever influential is when it involves a people or state who need our money more than someone elses.

[gigs]

DerbyX DerbyX:

Or Harper.

Last I checked he was and we're not.

[Akhenaten]

"We would be if Iggy was in charge."
"Or Harper."

both of you are wrong. After committing to Afghanistan there was nothing left to commit to Iraq. Furhter, had there been no Afghanistan I feel assured Chretien would've involved us in Iraq.

IMO, your first mistake in judging what these leaders do or don't do is when you assume their stated reasons for doing it or not doing it are accurate and sincere.

That's not "politics". Politics is when you don't do something basically because you can't, but you tell everyone it's "the wrong thing to do", or reversly you do something because you pretty much have to but you tell everyone "it's the right thing to do".

[ASLplease]

gigs gigs:

gonavy47 gonavy47:

DerbyX DerbyX:

Iraq is a horrible clusterfuck so don't wave war in my face either.

WE aren't in Iraq!

We would be if Iggy was in charge.

Cretien would have, too, but Martin had raped too much out of the defence budget...we didn't even have enough man power to manage our first replacement of troops that were deployed to Afgahnistan

[DerbyX]

Akhenaten Akhenaten:

$1:

hardly counters the fact that back then Canada did have respect and influence

When was this? The only time we ever had the illusion of respect or influence to my memory was whenever we were on board with other more influential nations towards some common goal (South Africa for example). We in turn were able our name out there but to my mind there is a void of international issues we ever spearheaded that ever got us any respect or influence. Rwanda was a good example. We screamed over and over again about this and the UN dismissed us and decided they couldn't determine if what they were looking at was a genocide or not. If other muchmore influential nations were making the same noise AND willing to put up the troops we couldn't they would've possessed much more influence on the matter.

The only influence there is is money, so the only time we're ever influential is when it involves a people or state who need our money more than someone elses.

Like I said you have to go back to when Pearson won the Nobel Prize. I also said our respect or at least our influence waned as our peacekeeping deployments did. Our respect around the world is more a question of what we didn't do as much as what we did.

Regardless we aren't gaining in respect under Harper and we won't be gaining in respect in proportion to a larger military. Your examples pretty much state the same thing.

[EyeBrock]

DerbyX DerbyX:

So winning the Nobel peace prize wasn't respect? I think you are relying too much on our lack of respect garnered as our deployments waned throughout the 70s and 80s.

The Aussies are certainly not a regional power and have no more ability to back themselves up with force then we do. In fact their ability as well as ours is almost dependant entirely on the US and quite frankly thats not respect I need nor want.

Again you consider force = respect. I'd say the countries that are buying into that are the very countries we seem to be criticizing lately.

Nobel peace prize. Bollocks, didn't Yasser Arafat win one?

The Aussies not a regional power? You need to do some reading Derby.

The Aussies have quite the military compared to us.Their defence budget is about the same size.

The Aussies are a regional power. You might be up to date on soft power but I’m current with real power and the lack of it.

They have air defence network that is effective and stand-alone in the region and is backed up with 100 combat aircraft.
They have just ordered the F18 E/F Super Hornet as a stop gap to replace their aging F18A’s. they also have 100 F35 JSF on order. The RAAF has strategic airflift capability provided by C17’s and has a large fleet of tac-lift such as the C130 and assorted heli-lift.


They have an amphibious assault capability with large hovercrafts and assault ships.
A 56 ship navy. They have submarines (six of them) that actually work.

The Army has 3 Armoured Brigades of regular troops, plus 6 Brigades of reserves.

They also have two regular army commando regiments plus the Australian Special Air Service Regiment.

The Aussies have recently deployed to East Timor (where they kicked arse), they fought in Iraq and have SF elements in Afghanistan. They were also heavily involved in relief efforts during the 2005 Tsunami where their amphibious landing ships and large hovercrafts proved very useful.

They have an active role in providing military assistance in Papua New Guinea and the Solomon’s and they recently assisted Indonesia in the earthquakes/tsunami relief effort.

They also have a naval task force deployed around Somalia.

I’d say they were a regional power.

http://www.defence.gov.au/index.cfm