[Public_Domain]

[andyt]

Because if we get it wrong, we'll get a spanking from nature. But yeast do that all the time.

[peck420]

Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:

I find it funny how obsessive we are about 'natural' things when damn near everything we deal with was made by machines and possesses complex mechanics and processes that nature could never produce.

Call me when we create something as 'simple' as a functioning human body.

We haven't even come close to achieving the complexity nature has mastered.

[PluggyRug]

Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:

I find it funny how obsessive we are about 'natural' things when damn near everything we deal with was made by machines and possesses complex mechanics and processes that nature could never produce.

We create our world. We stopped being natural a long time ago.

We are part of nature, therefore one can say nature created the machinery. Also, however complex the machine, it pales in comparison to the complexity of nature. After all, how complex could quarks and bosons be.

[gonavy47]

Living in a sod hut, raising sheep, and throwing rocks at other people. That's a natural state.

[andyt]

It wasn't at one time. Throwing rocks we might have been doing ever since we became homo sapiens, but a sod hut was advanced tech at one time, as was raising sheep. I can't tell if you're being facetious, but so far you haven't offered up anything to back up your premise.

And of course, living in a sod hut and raising sheep, even throwing rocks can all be done democratically.

[gonavy47]

Naked, shivering in a cave?

[PluggyRug]

andyt andyt:

even throwing rocks can all be done democratically.

Not really, if you throw a rock at me, I will throw a bigger rock at you.

How undemocratic of me.

[andyt]

Then I'll vote with my buddies to all throw rocks at you - very democratic.

[PluggyRug]

andyt andyt:

Then I'll vote with my buddies to all throw rocks at you - very democratic.

Being dictatorial, I order my lackeys to build a tank to protect me from your rocks, whilst firing my one ton rock thrower.

Voting does not work in a rock throwing contest.

It's basically down to "who has the biggest gun" syndrome.

[andyt]

gonavy47 gonavy47:

Naked, shivering in a cave?

going dowhill fast here. You said democracy wasn't a state, yet that is exactly what you're offering yourself.

[ShepherdsDog]

gonavy47 gonavy47:

Living in a sod hut, raising sheep, and throwing rocks at other people. That's a natural state.

To a MacDonald, that sounds like their traditional tactics

[gonavy47]

andyt andyt:

gonavy47 gonavy47:

Naked, shivering in a cave?

going dowhill fast here. You said democracy wasn't a state, yet that is exactly what you're offering yourself.

Sorry, don't get your banter old boy.

[eureka]

I don't think that democracy is "natural" in the sense that it is in any way innate. Virtually all advanced societies and Empires in the past have been built on slavery and autocracy.

However, the only societies that survive as advanced societies are progressive democratic ones. Democracy is a learned behaviour and a survival mechanism. Survival for the group. not the individual.

[Caelon]

eureka eureka:

I don't think that democracy is "natural" in the sense that it is in any way innate. Virtually all advanced societies and Empires in the past have been built on slavery and autocracy.

However, the only societies that survive as advanced societies are progressive democratic ones. Democracy is a learned behaviour and a survival mechanism. Survival for the group. not the individual.

At first I was inclined to agree with you, mostly because of statements like Churchill's, but then I started to think about exceptions.

Take China for example. Its political evolution over the last 100 years or so has not followed what the western world would call democracy. A socialistic dictatorship at best. Yet it has survived and will continue to survive for the foreseeable future. Not all citizens are happy with the current structure and many in private will cautiously make statements about desired change. They also state how much better it is than it was 20 years ago. If advanced society means material goods and supporting infrastructure then China would be considered advanced.

So net, net I would have to say your statement is too broad.

Perhaps a better statement on democracy would be that it is a means to a desired state that satisfies the most needs. By that I would include not only material goods, but freedom of choice in most aspect of an individuals life.

I can accept the learned behaviour part of your statement just not 'the only societies that survive' part.