[Lemmy]

BigKeithO BigKeithO:

People are paying for the scarce perceived value of "safe, quality water" when they buy water each day. I think you are proving my point. Who cares about the quality of the recording? I am not talking about recording the song off the radio, I am talking about the radio station giving away a song for FREE to you and I while still making money. Or is that impossible Mr. Professor?

Radio is a strange business. They're selling to advertisers whose promos they run and the songs, themsleves, are a form of advertising for the record companies. They play one or two songs on the record in hopes you'll go to HMV and buy all 12. So, I'd argue the radio stations aren't giving away anything. They're teasing you, like a movie trailer. And just call me Lemmy.

BigKeithO BigKeithO:

I don't download FYI, I just like to debate P2P. Where does morality fit into your economics classes? We agree with the middle man part, the internet is the great enabler and the labels are trying to hold it back. And like I said, it isn't semantics, it is a FACT. Look up theft, look up copyright infringement. They are two totally different things, this isn't my opinion here this is how the courts define it. Educate yourself on the subject.

Don't be a smartass. I know the law and the economics. I'm challenging you to do better on the latter.

[BigKeithO]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Radio is a strange business. They're selling to advertisers whose promos they run and the songs, themsleves, are a form of advertising for the record companies. They play one or two songs on the record in hopes you'll go to HMV and buy all 12. So, I'd argue the radio stations aren't giving away anything. They're teasing you, like a movie trailer. And just call me Lemmy.

Okay Lemmy, I would buy that except for the fact that the radio station has nothing to gain from you running out and buying all 12 tracks. The radio station is in the business of selling your attention to advertisers, they do so by bringing in listeners with their free music. The radio station is paying someone for the rights to play music over the air and yet they are still making money by selling our attention to advertisers. Using free music to make money.

You did hit the nail on the head when you say that radio is "a form of advertising for the record companies.". If it can work for the radio station AND the record companies to give away music for free over the airwaves what makes P2P so different? Just because they haven't thought of it yet doesn't mean it cannot be done.

Lemmy Lemmy:

Don't be a smartass. I know the law and the economics. I'm challenging you to do better on the latter.

I went back and re-read your last comment to me. I think we have a misunderstanding about what I am trying to get across. I am not saying that because music is online (and therefore a scarce good) that the artist is making money, rather I am trying to say that they could be making money from it. I am not naive enough to believe that the artists are currently getting paid when someone downloads their music, not all of them anyway. Let's take a look at two of the most famous examples - Radiohead with In Rainbows and Nine Inch Nails last two (or is it three?) albums released online for free. Complete albums free to download and share coupled with scarce reasons to buy. Radiohead and NiN both later released box sets and special editions of these albums and the fans still paid even though it was free for the taking.

The list of artists doing this continues to grow in-spite of the labels insistence that it cannot work. Jill Sobule, Girl Talk, John Wood, Jonathan Coulton, Olafur Arnalds, Matthew Ebel and even Lady Gaga is doing it! To say that the economics don't support it just isn't looking at what is happening in the industry right now.

Sorry for being a smart ass, it's in my nature.

[BigKeithO]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

And thusly, based on the ruling that was made, d/ling tunes is still legal in Canada until decided otherwise.
If the CRIA is afraid to challenge the ruling from 2004, then it would seem they just don't have a leg to stand on.
What you're saying doesn't make any sense. The legality of d/ling music to a non-cd format is "up in the air" because the group that would be the one to challenge the ruling, is afraid to lose the case and officailly make P2P legal?
The courts said it was ok to do so and until the CRIA grows a pair to challenge that ruling, I'm going with the court's decision that it's legal to download music for free onto my computer, as opposed to the group that says it IS illegal but doesn't have the balls to challenge it for fear of losing.

Fair enough, you do run the risk of a lawsuit in the future however slim that might be. I am just trying to explain it as I understand the ruling. Here is a quote from Dr. Michael Geist, Canada Research Chair of Internet and E-commerce Law at the University of Ottawa, about this very issue. He understands it better than you and I do:

"Canada has a private copying levy, which grants the right to make personal, non-commercial copies of sound recordings. The Copyright Board of Canada has ruled that the source of the music for the copy does not matter. This means it could be a copy of a CD you own, a CD from the library, or arguably a copy from a peer-to-peer system. In return for this copying, there is a levy on blank media (such as blank CDs) that has generated over $200 million for the industry and artists over the last number of years. Note that the right to make private copies of sound recordings does not extend to other media such as video."

So I guess the answer is yes, it is currently legal. Note there is nothing in the ruling about uploading to a P2P system. Downloading is good, uploading not so much.

[Lemmy]

BigKeithO BigKeithO:

The list of artists doing this continues to grow in-spite of the labels insistence that it cannot work. Jill Sobule, Girl Talk, John Wood, Jonathan Coulton, Olafur Arnalds, Matthew Ebel and even Lady Gaga is doing it! To say that the economics don't support it just isn't looking at what is happening in the industry right now.

Well, the record companies were NEVER good business people, they just had a lot of market control that they no longer have. And I never said that economics doesn't support what some bands are doing in a new and exciting way. All I said was your explanation (well, the explanation you admittedly took from someone else) of costs and prices wasn't correct.

BigKeithO BigKeithO:

Sorry for being a smart ass, it's in my nature.

Well, call this friendly advice, but there's a lot of folks on CKA with a great diversity and wealth of expertises (is that the plural of 'expertise'?). You might want to get to know some ours before you go presuming to lecture.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BigKeithO BigKeithO:

So I guess the answer is yes, it is currently legal. Note there is nothing in the ruling about uploading to a P2P system. Downloading is good, uploading not so much.

Actually, there is. Uploading to something like Megaupload or Rapidshare for example is still a big no-no. Sites like Napster and Pirate Bay haven't relocated up here, I believe, because THEY actually host and supply the content. I don't know for sure because I've never used either of them so I don't now exactly how they operate.
As for P2P like Lime/Frostwire the ruling was pretty specific:

$1:

The court further found that both downloading music and putting it in a shared folder available to other people online were legal in Canada.

In this case, I'm not necessarily uploading anything. I've made it available in my shared folder IF someone wants it. Not unlike a library that has cds available to borrow.
I think a big difference lays in how each system works. With Lime/Frostwire for example, let's say yer looking for a particularily obscure song like say, "Grandma's House of Babes" by Scatterbrain( yes, real band, real song ) and only one person has it available to share, if they're not online when you want to d/l it, tough noogies. The song is not available unless the person/people that have it are online themsleves, even if it's listed in the search.

[BigKeithO]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Well, call this friendly advice, but there's a lot of folks on CKA with a great diversity and wealth of expertises (is that the plural of 'expertise'?). You might want to get to know some ours before you go presuming to lecture.

I didn't think I was lecturing, just stating my opinion. I was correct with my "smart ass" comment though, wasn't I? Morality has no place in economics. I like a good debate/discussion and I got one here. You might not agree with me but it got you talking! Just let me know if I am being offensive and I think we'll get along just fine.

I believe it is "expertise" (Pronunciation: ek-(ˌ)spər-ˈtēz).

[BigKeithO]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Sites like Napster and Pirate Bay haven't relocated up here, I believe, because THEY actually host and supply the content. I don't know for sure because I've never used either of them so I don't now exactly how they operate.

The Pirate Bay and any other bit-torrent site do not actually host any files, they are still P2P. All that those sites do is act as a search engine for torrent files. Someone "uploads" a torrent to a torrent tracker, really a torrent is just a tiny little hash file that points to the IP address of the file you are looking for. The torrent program then does the rest for you (very simplistic explanation of torrents). The problem with a torrent is that when you join the swarm you are downloading from everyone else in the swarm as well as uploading to everyone else. You cannot download a torrent without uploading at least some of the file to others in the swarm.

The Pirate Bay was found liable in court in Sweden because they hosted their own tracker, that has since been taken down and they are now using Magnet Links.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

The song is not available unless the person/people that have it are online themsleves, even if it's listed in the search.

True. You can just turn off your sharing folders in these types of P2P programs and just be a leech and upload nothing. Then you are well within the law in Canada.

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BigKeithO BigKeithO:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

Sites like Napster and Pirate Bay haven't relocated up here, I believe, because THEY actually host and supply the content. I don't know for sure because I've never used either of them so I don't now exactly how they operate.

The Pirate Bay and any other bit-torrent site do not actually host any files, they are still P2P. All that those sites do is act as a search engine for torrent files. Someone "uploads" a torrent to a torrent tracker, really a torrent is just a tiny little hash file that points to the IP address of the file you are looking for. The torrent program then does the rest for you (very simplistic explanation of torrents). The problem with a torrent is that when you join the swarm you are downloading from everyone else in the swarm as well as uploading to everyone else. You cannot download a torrent without uploading at least some of the file to others in the swarm.

The Pirate Bay was found liable in court in Sweden because they hosted their own tracker, that has since been taken down and they are now using Magnet Links.

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

The song is not available unless the person/people that have it are online themsleves, even if it's listed in the search.

True. You can just turn off your sharing folders in these types of P2P programs and just be a leech and upload nothing. Then you are well within the law in Canada.

It's not even about being a leech. I just mean that unless everybody with those types of P2P is online 24/7, availability CAN be limited. I know I don't leave my computer on and connected when I go away for a few days, or go bed, or even step out to get in some grocery shopping. That's what I was driving at.

And thanks for explaining how Pirate Bay and their like works. Not that I use Lime/Frostwire anymore but is it the same type of setup as Pirate Bay?

[BigKeithO]

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

And thanks for explaining how Pirate Bay and their like works. Not that I use Lime/Frostwire anymore but is it the same type of setup as Pirate Bay?

No. They use the old Gnutella network. These guys are what is left of the old "Napster" network days. Lime/Frostwire just search the Gnutella network for whatever it is you are searching for and connects you to people with the matching files. With these programs you are making a 1-to-1 connection with another peer (mostly, they have been upgraded to handle torrent files as well...) and you download your file from that peer. There is a sort of built in swarm function with these programs where you'll download chunks of files from everyone with the same copy, I'm not too sure how that works, similar to bit-torrent without the uploading part I'd imagine.

Hope that helps.

[Lemmy]

BigKeithO BigKeithO:

Morality has no place in economics.

Uhhhh, that I'll have to patently disagree with.

[DrCaleb]

Why Canadians should care about ACTA:

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5001/135/

[Scape]

Hmm... that seems to have stirred the hornets nest...

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/blogsection/0/126/

[PublicAnimalNo9]

BigKeithO BigKeithO:

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:

And thanks for explaining how Pirate Bay and their like works. Not that I use Lime/Frostwire anymore but is it the same type of setup as Pirate Bay?

No. They use the old Gnutella network. These guys are what is left of the old "Napster" network days. Lime/Frostwire just search the Gnutella network for whatever it is you are searching for and connects you to people with the matching files. With these programs you are making a 1-to-1 connection with another peer (mostly, they have been upgraded to handle torrent files as well...) and you download your file from that peer. There is a sort of built in swarm function with these programs where you'll download chunks of files from everyone with the same copy, I'm not too sure how that works, similar to bit-torrent without the uploading part I'd imagine.

Hope that helps.

Actually it does. It means according to Canadian law, I can still legally d/l tunes from that site and share my music with others.

[DrCaleb]

Scape Scape:

Hmm... that seems to have stirred the hornets nest...

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/blogsection/0/126/

Good. Hopefully people will realize, through apathy, they are about to lose choices in how they use the things they pay good money for.

[bootlegga]

Lemmy Lemmy:

Also, I'm getting to be an old fart. That means I don't much like any new music, so most of the tunes that I "steal", I already bought on lp or cassette sometime in the past. I kind of feel like I already own the license to those songs. Maybe I'm justifying my own theft, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Power to the people.

That's my thoughts exactly!

Besides, as long as it's considered legal in Canada to download music, if I do hear a new song I like, I will download it if possible.