[Gunnair]

Brenda Brenda:

Gunnair Gunnair:

It's not out of context. It seemes pretty clear you were questioning why you have to adapt to that.

WHEN THEY refuse to adapt to anything, yes. Is that weird or something?

It's apples and oranges. Comparing Canada to the UAE WRT immigrant adaptability seems misguided.

Anyway, the point is, one must adapt to the ways of the host country. If Canada/Europe allows people to bring their culture and set up a 'little Beirut' then so be it. Don't expect and complain that other countries do not. Focus your ire on the government, not on the immigrants that are allowed to establish their communities they way they wish. Honestly, what do you expect? Immigrants aren't going to live with like minded people? That's plain naieve.

[Brenda]

I never compared CANADA with anything. Keep up, k?

I take it you won't mind a little town like Bountiful?
And I also take it you wouldn't mind me keeping ALL my Dutch thingies? The way I am used to live, and shove it through your throat?

And, fyi, I applauded Sarkozy, didn't I. That is the government of France, right? I wasn't talking about immigration either, just about PEOPLE. Immigrants or tourists, I do not care.

[Zipperfish]

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

When I worked in the UK (left in 1994) I was doing 'Islamic Studies" at Manchester Poly. Most of the class were 2nd generation Pakistani's or Bangladeshi's looking to upgrade their religious knowledge at a degree level. No niquabs or burquas despite the fact there were some very devout class-members. We all got on and there was a high level of mutual respect.
Up to the 1990’s niquabs and burquas were never seen on the streets of Manchester, even though there was already then a very large Pakistani-Bangladeshi community.

I went back in 2007 and things had changed. There were niquabs and burqas everywhere. The Mulsim community no longer wants to fit in and they have a 'fortress mecca' mentality now in the UK. They all live in cultural ghettoes in the city and only shop at Muslim owned stores, use Muslim lawyers, real estate agents, car dealers etc.

This isn't a right/left thing, this is taking notice of a large immigrant population within most western countries that is now radicalised and shows nothing but contempt for our culture and society.
The wearing if the niqaub/burqa is a badge of radical Islam that tells us that they do not want to fit in.
It tells us that these people have values that are medieval and that women have no value or voice.

It's no apocalypse but it certainly is divisive behaviour.

I always wonder why left-leaning pundits support this stuff.
These are radical adherents to Islam that believe that women are subservient, don’t deserve to be educated and that homosexuality is abhorrent and should be punished by stoning.
Hardly liberal or left-leaning principles.

I suppose if they started showing up in the burqas here, it would be upsetting. I think, here in North Van, that most of the Muslims are Iranian (Persian), followed closely by Iraqis. Maybe that's why. We don';t get a lot of backwater Pakistanis and Afghanis.

[Brenda]

Morocan and Turkish muslims are what you do not want.

[EyeBrock]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

EyeBrock EyeBrock:

When I worked in the UK (left in 1994) I was doing 'Islamic Studies" at Manchester Poly. Most of the class were 2nd generation Pakistani's or Bangladeshi's looking to upgrade their religious knowledge at a degree level. No niquabs or burquas despite the fact there were some very devout class-members. We all got on and there was a high level of mutual respect.
Up to the 1990’s niquabs and burquas were never seen on the streets of Manchester, even though there was already then a very large Pakistani-Bangladeshi community.

I went back in 2007 and things had changed. There were niquabs and burqas everywhere. The Mulsim community no longer wants to fit in and they have a 'fortress mecca' mentality now in the UK. They all live in cultural ghettoes in the city and only shop at Muslim owned stores, use Muslim lawyers, real estate agents, car dealers etc.

This isn't a right/left thing, this is taking notice of a large immigrant population within most western countries that is now radicalised and shows nothing but contempt for our culture and society.
The wearing if the niqaub/burqa is a badge of radical Islam that tells us that they do not want to fit in.
It tells us that these people have values that are medieval and that women have no value or voice.

It's no apocalypse but it certainly is divisive behaviour.

I always wonder why left-leaning pundits support this stuff.
These are radical adherents to Islam that believe that women are subservient, don’t deserve to be educated and that homosexuality is abhorrent and should be punished by stoning.
Hardly liberal or left-leaning principles.

I suppose if they started showing up in the burqas here, it would be upsetting. I think, here in North Van, that most of the Muslims are Iranian (Persian), followed closely by Iraqis. Maybe that's why. We don';t get a lot of backwater Pakistanis and Afghanis.

You get me wrong. I'm not 'upset' at burqas etc.

But I am noting that there is a reason why some Muslims who were not wearing these items ten years ago, are now wearing them.

There is also a correlation between these obvious displays of religious fervour and a growing radicalism which has seen acts of terror in the US, UK, Spain, France, Indonesia, Kenya and plots that have been thwarted in many western countries that involved 'home-grown' Islamic terror groups connected to recently arrived immigrant groups.

Again, I'm not upset, I am however concerned.

[Bacardi4206]

Brenda Brenda:

I am Dutch, ALL my neighbours were muslims. AND, I have had a piece of that what you call "muslimphobia". Seriously, try it someday, and then tell me if you didn't feel like you were going to be mugged. That was LONG before 9/11 btw.

If you can tell me not to go to the UAE, and in the same sentence you say: they must be able to wear whatever they want, welcome them, do you really realize what you are saying?

I already told you, I had already tried it. I was sceptical of a lot of muslims because all you see on TV or read on the news is violence and drama regarding them. Mosques in western countries teaching hate against western culture because of the current wars. Protesters on the street with anti-western signs or racist anti-israel signs. Radicals in Afghanistan spilling acid on teenage girls faces because they want to go to school or people blocking the fire exit of girls who aren't wearing there burkas.

However I snapped out of that way of thinking because luckily for me I live in a democratic country that seperates church from state. Where if a father killed his daughter because she doesn't want to wear her burka. That father would go to jail instead of getting praised in the streets as a hero.

You do have a chance of being mugged by a muslim, but what you also don't get is that you have the same chance of getting mugged by a non-muslim. The difference is that you are muslimphobic so you are only pointing fingers at one of them. I agree that when they decide to immigrate here, they should have to integrate into our society. Learn our language and pay there tax's, get jobs and do what everybody else does. However that is a problem with our immigration system, not them.

We should have people that will make sure they integrate. They should offer free language courses and courses on how to pay tax's. Teach them the ropes of our society. Simply putting in a filter system and whoever manages to get by the system you just give them a Canadian flag, say Hi and point them to the place where they can get there ID's to become a Canadian citizen is not going to make them want to integrate.

Also your second sentence I don't get, I am not demanding that you don't go to the UAE. I am simply stating that if you feel you won't be treated justly there as a woman because of there lack of woman rights than as a tip, don't take a trip there.

However if you are saying that just because the UAE has really bad women rights that we should just treat all muslims like garbage and take away there rights. Neither would that provoke the UAE and other muslims to change there womans rights or there mindset. All that would accomplish is making Canada and other western countries the same as the UAE. Countries who take away the rights of citizens.

Which if a muslim woman in Canada or anywhere else in the west wants to wear a burka for religion reasons than really, who are we to deny them that? Only the fictional fashion police has that right .

[Brenda]

$1:

You do have a chance of being mugged by a muslim, but what you also don't get is that you have the same chance of getting mugged by a non-muslim.

The difference is, that when they wear a ski mask at 3 am, I am sure I am mugged. I like to see peoples faces, muslim or no muslim. Can I?

$1:

The difference is that you are muslimphobic so you are only pointing fingers at one of them.

You obviously never got my point, and I am kinda done discussing it, if all you can do is point telling me I am "muslimphobic", which is far from the truth.

$1:

Which if a muslim woman in Canada or anywhere else in the west wants to wear a burka for religion reasons than really, who are we to deny them that?

First, this topic is not about Canada, but France, second, yes, we can deny them that in public places like schools and government buildings, like Turkey does. ID-ing is important.

[EyeBrock]

Some of the ‘gorillas in the room’ on this should be examined. Canada is a nation that is built on immigration from countries that have been predominantly European or western in outlook. I’m talking about the 1600’s on.
Recently, as in the past 30 years or so we have been taking in people from countries who’s cultures differ vastly from our own. There have been minor issues in the past with peoples such as the Ukranians, Irish, Italians etc. These differences pale into insignificance when we look at the vast cultural divide between Canadians of European descent (which still make up the major proportion of Canada) and those primarily of Arab or East Indian extraction. The big differences are religious and cultural.

Lets face it, most Islamic countries are Third World theocracies run by corrupt and oppressive regimes. The immigrants from these countries are in turn socially backward and have totally different views on women, homosexuality etc ,and whose standards reflect a mixture of the Quran and their own less than forward thinking cultures.

Many Canadians are uncomfortable with seeing women treated as mere chattels and forced to dress in niqabs or burqas by ghetto-ist cultures within our society. But to even question this treatment is to invite the inevitable cries of ‘racism’ etc.

This is a free and democratic culture and we have got here through the Magna Carta, age of reason, the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, the 1837 rebellions, Responsible Government, the Boer War, the Great War, women’s suffrage, WW2, Korea, the Quiet Revolution, the FLQ Crises ect.
Our ancestors were fighting for our rights while many of the new immigrant's ancestors were just trogging to the mosque and making sure their women wore burqas.

We deserve some respect for our culture and our society as we fought to get these rights.
We can certainly question those who come to our free country but want to impose a mini-Pakistan or wherever in Mississauga or Vancouver without being called ‘racist’.

There are limits to reasonable accommodation and stopping women from wearing bags on their heads with slits in should be one of them.

[KorbenDeck]

Gunnair Gunnair:

You mistake adapt with conquer. Are you suggesting there is a master plan to slowly conquer the west through muslim immigration?

"We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe - without swords, without guns, without conquests. The fifty million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."

Libyan Leader Mu'ammar Al-Qaddafi as shown on Al-Jazeera. He does not represent European Muslims but he's recently been considered more moderate and responsible leader in the Arab world.

Three years ago a meeting of 24 Islamic organizations had a meeting in Chicago. The transcripts of that meeting showed in detail their plans to EVANGELIZE AMERICA through journalism, education, politics, and more.

In southern France, there are now more mosques than churches

Of all the immigration to Europe since 1990, 90% has been Islamic immigration.

[Gunnair]

Brenda wrote:

$1:

I never compared CANADA with anything. Keep up, k?

Don't worry, I'm there. My apologies if your fragmented argument is getting harder to decipher.

$1:

I take it you won't mind a little town like Bountiful?

No. Why should I care?

$1:

And I also take it you wouldn't mind me keeping ALL my Dutch thingies? The way I am used to live, and shove it through your throat?

If you mean the narrow point of view you seem to have brought with you as well as the needlessly aggresive tone here, well, not much I can do about that. Any other 'thingies' I need to know about?

$1:

And, fyi, I applauded Sarkozy, didn't I. That is the government of France, right?

I wasn't keeping score.

$1:

I wasn't talking about immigration either, just about PEOPLE. Immigrants or tourists, I do not care.

No just complaining about having to adapt in the UAE.

[Gunnair]

Brenda Brenda:

Morocan and Turkish muslims are what you do not want.

Why? What did that race of people do to you?

[Brenda]

RACE??? Holy crap

[Gunnair]

Would you prefer group?

[Brenda]

I guess I am a RACE too, being Dutch... And you are of the CANADIAN race...

If you do not know what you are talking about, you might as well not try to discuss the topic.
*starts teaching*
In Western Europe, most muslims are from the Rif mountains in Morocco, or the back country of Turkey. The culture there is not modern, like western Europe is, but old days. The muslims bring their culture, language and religion with them, without any want to adapt. Second generation immigrants do not speak the language when they hit school-age. They despice the western way of clothing, tell adult women (like myself) to cover up, and call them whores. The youngsters are supposed to marry a cousin from the mountains and bring her here, and they are supposed to be virgins. They really like blond girls though, and f*ck themselves silly with the blonde bimbo's, before they bring their bride to Europe. The blond bimbo's are knocked up, and daddy does not want to have anything to do with them.
*stops teaching*

Do I need to say more?

[Gunnair]

Brenda

$1:

I guess I am a RACE too, being Dutch... And you are of the CANADIAN race...

If you do not know what you are talking about, you might as well not try to discuss the topic.

You seem to have maxed out on your ability to discuss coherently here. These things happen, so I understand.

$1:

*starts teaching*
In Western Europe, most muslims are from the Rif mountains in Morocco, or the back country of Turkey. The culture there is not modern, like western Europe is, but old days. The muslims bring their culture, language and religion with them, without any want to adapt. Second generation immigrants do not speak the language when they hit school-age. They despice the western way of clothing, tell adult women (like myself) to cover up, and call them whores. The youngsters are supposed to marry a cousin from the mountains and bring her here, and they are supposed to be virgins. They really like blond girls though, and f*ck themselves silly with the blonde bimbo's, before they bring their bride to Europe. The blond bimbo's are knocked up, and daddy does not want to have anything to do with them.
*stops teaching*

Thanks for the lesson. Hope you don't feel offended in that I'm not crazy about taking your rant as unadulterated fact. Got some great refs to back it up?

$1:

So I need to say more?

I dunno. Do you?