[Gunnair]

Brenda Brenda:

I am talking about the hypocrisy. They complain they have to adapt, but they do the same, if not worse in their own country.

Weren't you complaining about having to adapt? Or did I read that wrong?

[Brenda]

You missed my point completely.

I said, when I go there, I have to adapt.
Why shouldn't they when they go to France?

I got told to "just not go there then". Fine, let them "just not go to France then".

[KorbenDeck]

Bacardi4206 Bacardi4206:

That sounds more or less like muslimphobia.

While I will agree that many people do not like Muslims simply because they are Muslims, much like there are people who do not like Gays simply because they are gay. I will however point out that Islam teaches the complete opposite of most western values, and it is only threw heavy western influences that ideas such as equal rights, woman's rights, freedom of speech and secular governments even exist. Dhimmi is what a non-Muslim is called in a Islamic country, they have less rights than Muslims and are forced to pay extra taxes. Muslims are also very forceful in trying to bring Sharia Law to any country they come to, and are willing to use force to do it.

In Europe "muslimphobia" as you call it, is justified. Muslims have made very little effort in fitting into European culture/society and have put more effort into changing European laws to fit their own needs. According to The Germany Federal Statistics Office if current trends continue Germany will become an Islamic state within 40 years. What that means is that German culture in 40 years will be a thing of the past, almost all western culture will be replace by Islam within 50 years at the current rate.

Go look into any Islamic organization in the western world and you will see 90% of them are simply trying to promote political Islam. There are the rare few organizations that attempt to modernize Islam but have met little success on the large scale.

Anyways I have drifted of topic and will come back to the your choice of word you used to describe Brenda "Muslimphobia." Whenever a person tries to bring up a subject that may offend a religion or group of people (other than Christianity) they are called racist, fascist, homophobic, and antisemitism etc. While in some cases this may be true, in many cases its not true. There are many attempts by people to open debates about the threats to our way of life/culture/values by they are shot down by being called one of the things I listed above. The western world has become so politically correct that we would rather watch all the advancements of western society over the past thousand years be reversed (like separation of state and church)than speak the true and engage in debate about these topics, for fear of being labeled racist, or fascist.

Wish I had more time to explain this in more details but that is not the case. I will leave you with a link to a site run by ex-Muslims http://www.faithfreedom.org/faqs/ this site has link to many pro-Islam sites as well to allow you to see both sides of the debate.

[Brenda]

*blushes*
I am impressed Thank you

[Gunnair]

Brenda Brenda:

You missed my point completely.

I said, when I go there, I have to adapt.
Why shouldn't they when they go to France?

I got told to "just not go there then". Fine, let them "just not go to France then".

$1:

Excuse me, but... in the UAE, I cannot walk on the streets NOT accompanied by a male (not even as a tourist), I am supposed to cover my shoulders and arms, AND I can not be alone in a room with a man that is not my husband. Why is that?

Seems like the point was questioning why you have to adapt?

[Brenda]

$1:

That's pretty much like muslims countries disallowing tourists or citizens to wear those necklaces with the cross on them.

That was the post above it. Don't take it out of context.

[KorbenDeck]

$1:

Seems like the point was questioning why you have to adapt?

In theory the reason one moves to another country is because they WANT to be in that country, they want the standers of living, they want the way of life, they want to be part of the culture. You do not join a tennis club if you do not want to play tennis, so why would you move to another country with a different culture if you did not want to take part in that culture?

I would also point out that the mentally of making the country someone moves to adapt to them instead of the other way around resulted in the destruction and genocide of most of the Americas native population. So one could argue that immigration is the same practice but just labeled as something else because the results are not as quickly noticeable as say colonization.

[Zipperfish]

Can't swing a fish without hitting a Muslim here in North Vancouver, but can't say I've ever seen a burqua or nijab or whatever. Seen head scarves, often combined with tight jeans. I think the whole Muslim cultural invasion thing is a bit over the top.

Every generation has their idea of apocalypse. For the contemporary left it's global warming, for the right it's the Muslims. Neither has much hope of decimating humanity. Personally my money's on a world fishery crashes leading to mass starvation and war in the next thirty years or so. Airborne ebola is a possibility too, but tough to stick a timmeline on that one. Kind of random.

[EyeBrock]

When I worked in the UK (left in 1994) I was doing 'Islamic Studies" at Manchester Poly. Most of the class were 2nd generation Pakistani's or Bangladeshi's looking to upgrade their religious knowledge at a degree level. No niquabs or burquas despite the fact there were some very devout class-members. We all got on and there was a high level of mutual respect.
Up to the 1990’s niquabs and burquas were never seen on the streets of Manchester, even though there was already then a very large Pakistani-Bangladeshi community.

I went back in 2007 and things had changed. There were niquabs and burqas everywhere. The Mulsim community no longer wants to fit in and they have a 'fortress mecca' mentality now in the UK. They all live in cultural ghettoes in the city and only shop at Muslim owned stores, use Muslim lawyers, real estate agents, car dealers etc.

This isn't a right/left thing, this is taking notice of a large immigrant population within most western countries that is now radicalised and shows nothing but contempt for our culture and society.
The wearing if the niqaub/burqa is a badge of radical Islam that tells us that they do not want to fit in.
It tells us that these people have values that are medieval and that women have no value or voice.

It's no apocalypse but it certainly is divisive behaviour.

I always wonder why left-leaning pundits support this stuff.
These are radical adherents to Islam that believe that women are subservient, don’t deserve to be educated and that homosexuality is abhorrent and should be punished by stoning.
Hardly liberal or left-leaning principles.

[Gunnair]

KorbenDeck KorbenDeck:

$1:

Seems like the point was questioning why you have to adapt?

$1:

In theory the reason one moves to another country is because they WANT to be in that country, they want the standers of living, they want the way of life, they want to be part of the culture. You do not join a tennis club if you do not want to play tennis, so why would you move to another country with a different culture if you did not want to take part in that culture?

Look at the patterns of immagration into the US in the 19th and early 20th century. Little Italy and little Ireland amongst others demonstrated that people may have moved to the US, but they brought their culture with them and lived with like minded persons. They'll adapt, but it may take a generation or two.

$1:

I would also point out that the mentally of making the country someone moves to adapt to them instead of the other way around resulted in the destruction and genocide of most of the Americas native population. So one could argue that immigration is the same practice but just labeled as something else because the results are not as quickly noticeable as say colonization.

You mistake adapt with conquer. Are you suggesting there is a master plan to slowly conquer the west through muslim immigration?

[Gunnair]

Brenda Brenda:

$1:

That's pretty much like muslims countries disallowing tourists or citizens to wear those necklaces with the cross on them.

That was the post above it. Don't take it out of context.

It's not out of context. It seemes pretty clear you were questioning why you have to adapt to that.

[EyeBrock]

Gunnair Gunnair:

KorbenDeck KorbenDeck:

$1:

Seems like the point was questioning why you have to adapt?

$1:

In theory the reason one moves to another country is because they WANT to be in that country, they want the standers of living, they want the way of life, they want to be part of the culture. You do not join a tennis club if you do not want to play tennis, so why would you move to another country with a different culture if you did not want to take part in that culture?

Look at the patterns of immagration into the US in the 19th and early 20th century. Little Italy and little Ireland amongst others demonstrated that people may have moved to the US, but they brought their culture with them and lived with like minded persons. They'll adapt, but it may take a generation or two.

$1:

I would also point out that the mentally of making the country someone moves to adapt to them instead of the other way around resulted in the destruction and genocide of most of the Americas native population. So one could argue that immigration is the same practice but just labeled as something else because the results are not as quickly noticeable as say colonization.

You mistake adapt with conquer. Are you suggesting there is a master plan to slowly conquer the west through muslim immigration?

Gunnair, I think there is more to this than just fitting in eventually.
This is the radicalisation of a religious multitude. It's not just a generational thing.
In 1990's UK, the Pakistanis et al were fitting in well. Now they are spurning the mainstream, as they are in France and other Euro countries and they are killing Brits on buses and trains and fighting with the Taleban against the British Army.

If you want to look at an historical parallel with the Irish, look at the Fenian movement or the IRA.
There was plenty of support for both radical movements in the US and Canada.
I remember seeing collections in US pubs that were funding the IRA in the 1980's as my mates were being bombed in their PMQ's.

[Gunnair]

EyeBrock wrote:

$1:

Gunnair, I think there is more to this than just fitting in eventually.
This is the radicalisation of a religious multitude. It's not just a generational thing.

I duuno, I see it more as generational. East Indians moved into the Okanagan in droves in the 70's when I was a kid, and I think they made some good progress trying to balance fitting in with keeping their culture. That may not be the case now because it is easier to maintain the links with the old country and its issues via internet and other media.

$1:

In 1990's UK, the Pakistanis et al were fitting in well. Now they are spurning the mainstream, as they are in France and other Euro countries and they are killing Brits on buses and trains and fighting with the Taleban against the British Army.

This is where I think generational changes and media access have a role to play in hardening the current groups of immagrints from adapting. That, and I won't deny, the fact that host countries have become very liberal in their views towards allowing immigrants to build their 'insert fortress immigrant community here'.

$1:

If you want to look at an historical parallel with the Irish, look at the Fenian movement or the IRA.
There was plenty of support for both radical movements in the US and Canada.
I remember seeing collections in US pubs that were funding the IRA in the 1980's as my mates were being bombed in their PMQ's.

Yeah, well, that's what picks my ass with people bitching about muslim immigrants. They conveniantly forget the issues brought to North America by European immigrants.

Anyway,EB, time will tell. I also believe it is absolutely foolish to believe that immigrants will leave their baggage at the door. It's proved impossible in the past. I would like to see the government move towards a harder line with immigrants and less host country accomodation, but we have not yet reached the tipping point that would allow for the political will to do it. I'm not sure what it would take, because I don't see an attitude adjustment in the UK, and they had bombs going off.

Sometimes it feels like we've tucked our collective dicks between our legs on the controvercial stuff.

Good points though. Always fun to discuss stuff with you.

[Brenda]

Gunnair Gunnair:

Brenda Brenda:

$1:

That's pretty much like muslims countries disallowing tourists or citizens to wear those necklaces with the cross on them.

That was the post above it. Don't take it out of context.

It's not out of context. It seemes pretty clear you were questioning why you have to adapt to that.

WHEN THEY refuse to adapt to anything, yes. Is that weird or something?

[Brenda]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

Can't swing a fish without hitting a Muslim here in North Vancouver, but can't say I've ever seen a burqua or nijab or whatever. Seen head scarves, often combined with tight jeans. I think the whole Muslim cultural invasion thing is a bit over the top.

Not in Europe...