[Chumley]

I'll get my cape.

[DrCaleb]

grainfedprairieboy grainfedprairieboy:

I wish I was bright enough to fully comprehend and evaluate the threat or lack there of.

The 'chicken little' title of this thread aside; There isn't one. No need to worry.

The LHD was meant to look for a quantum particle that is thought to exist, which is responsible for gravity (in a general sort of way). It is predicted by quantum theory , and is important for us to find. If we find it, then we prove our theories so far.

But to find it, we have to accelerate two particles of heavy elements to nearly the speed of light, and smack them into each other. Some people think that could create a 'black hole' due to the large amount of energy involved. The energy involved will be something like a fully loaded freight train, travelling at highway speeds. If it creates a mini black hole, it will only exist for a fraction of a second, before it dies from lack of energy. Freight trains aren't known for creating black holes.

Black holes emit something called 'Hawking radiation' that means they do indeed decay. And the smaller they are, the faster they decay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

http://www.xkcd.com/401/

[kal]

mixedfarmer mixedfarmer:

This is a new technology with an uncertain outcome.

Wrong. Particle accelerators are not new. This one is simply the largest and most powerful.

$1:

This is not the wright brothers trying to fly or henry ford using the assembly line. This is more along the lines of the first atomic bomb or nuclear reactor.

No, it isn't. This is more along the lines of detonating a 35Kt bomb instead of a 25Kt bomb.

$1:

I think more thought is needed than reading a wikipedia article.

More thought, you mean like the kind physicists have put into developing this thing? You mean like the kind that has resulted from decades of research?

$1:

If they are so certain what will happen then they dont need to turn the machine on

That sounds like religious philosophy. "We're so sure what's true, we have no need to test it!". Scientific progress is about testing your theories in an attempt to prove them wrong, not leave them alone because you think they're right.

[Arctic_Menace]

$1:

This is a new technology with an uncertain outcome.

So was flight, and the development of gunpowder and other ballistic/projectile weapons...

$1:

This is not the wright brothers trying to fly...

Actually, it kinda is. The Wright brothers had no idea really how their invention was going to turn out. They just hoped that it would fly and land safely and not kill them. This project, like so many others in our collective past, is being tried for teh first time, with what is in all reality as minimal a possible risk you could ask for. That's very rare...

$1:

This is more along the lines of the first atomic bomb or nuclear reactor.

And hey! Look! We're all not dead!

My point still stands...

$1:

I think more thought is needed than reading a wikipedia article.

Well obviously, but it's not like the group of scientists from around the world just read the wikipedia article and said: "okay, this is safe".

Years of preparations, simulations, theories and so many other aspects that have been studied to death have pointed out that this is fairly safe. Much the same way they test cars for their safety rating. There is always a risk, but these scientists(who are much smarter than you or I) have determined this to be a safe enterprise.

[Arctic_Menace]

$1:

If they are so certain what will happen then they dont need to turn the machine on

That's not how it works.

It's not about certainty about what happens, but more along the lines of: "let's turn on this machine that will give us a better understanding of the universe".

This project is about expanding our horizons and understanding of the world around us; not a case of "I wonder what happens when I push this button"...

[Arctic_Menace]

The following is addressed to everyone who has posted above me on this page...

[kal]

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

The following is addressed to everyone who has posted above me on this page...

ty

[BartSimpson]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The LHD was meant to look for a quantum particle that is thought to exist, which is responsible for gravity (in a general sort of way). It is predicted by quantum theory , and is important for us to find. If we find it, then we prove our theories so far.

I recall Stephen Hawking speaking at UC Davis some years ago and he said that the lack of evidence for a gravitational particle could be proof that God or the Universe cheats.

To clarify, he said that we don't have to actually see the particles, but that we should be able to predictably see them causing actions and reactions in other particles in much the same way we prove the existence of other types of particles by indirect observation.

He went on to say that experiments with vaporizing mass will need to take place to determine how fast a gravitational effect is felt. If the experiments show that the effect is felt at the speed of light then the effect will be due to a particle. If the effect is felt faster than the speed of light (as some theoretical physicists posit) then gravity will not be due to a particle, but due to a phenomena that cannot be observed directly or indirectly.

Gravity may well be an extradimensional effect of something we cannot observe.

[BartSimpson]

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

This project is about expanding our horizons and understanding of the world around us; not a case of "I wonder what happens when I push this button"...

Reading this I pictured some guy in a white lab coat saying to his physicist friends:

"Here, hold my beer a sec and watch this!"

[DrCaleb]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Gravity may well be an extradimensional effect of something we cannot observe.

Indeed!

One of the things String Theory predicts is multiple dimensions that are unseen to us. Gravity may come from one or more those dimensions, which may explain why it is the weakest of the forces. If the LHC produces black holes, it would almost certainally tell us about those extra dimensions.

If you go to that Wiki link I posted above, you'll see a Feynman diagram of what may happen, a W-Boson and z-Boson collide to form a neutral Boson that we can detect.

In Professor Higg's words:

Professor Higgs Professor Higgs:

Hysteria aside, Professor Higgs seemed pleased that so many people outside the rarefied world of particle physics and cosmology are taking an interest in what will happen at Cern in the coming few years. He for one is certain that something awesome is about to happen, even if his particle is not found – although he thinks that is unlikely.

"I'd be very puzzled if it wasn't discovered ... If you don't have something like a Higgs bosOn ... if it's not that, what the hell is it? If it's not found, I no longer understand what I think I understand," he said.

And if it is found? "I shall open a bottle of something."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 05757.html

[Arctic_Menace]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:

This project is about expanding our horizons and understanding of the world around us; not a case of "I wonder what happens when I push this button"...

Reading this I pictured some guy in a white lab coat saying to his physicist friends:

"Here, hold my beer a sec and watch this!"

That's what I was thinkin too...

[kal]

I <3 scientific progress

[Keemo]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The LHD was meant to look for a quantum particle that is thought to exist, which is responsible for gravity (in a general sort of way). It is predicted by quantum theory , and is important for us to find. If we find it, then we prove our theories so far.

The Hadron particle, still a theory, is thought to be the quantum bit responsible for gravity. If they exist, they will affect the other, previously observed particles (including Higgs Booson) in a predicted manner. If they exist and are discovered, we will be closer to the holy grail of quantum physics, a unified theory of everything. At the moment, there are conflicting theories, including string/super symmetry.

Experiments like this are needed. When the first atomic bomb was tested, the physicists involved, including Oppenheimer, were taking bets on whether or not it would start a chain reaction that would not stop until the planet was fully converted to energy. Those were the long odds. No progress comes without risk, and along with risk, there are nay-sayers, like those who said Columbus would sail over the edge of the world.


By the way, about 'Hold my beer and watch this...'

[mixedfarmer]

One of Hawkings theories was that you can reverse time and an egg droped and smashed would be rearranged back to its past state. Then years later hawkings said this theory is not possible and he was wrong. Not all theories are fact and can be disputed and later changed.

[kal]

mixedfarmer mixedfarmer:

One of Hawkings theories was that you can reverse time and an egg droped and smashed would be rearranged back to its past state. Then years later hawkings said this theory is not possible and he was wrong. Not all theories are fact and can be disputed and later changed.

Yea, which is why we have the LHC to prove the theories wrong or correct. Also, I get the feeling you're using "theory" in the layman's term and not the scientific term. Remember, gravity is "only" a theory. Flight is "only" a theory. Just because one part of the Hawking theory was work out to be highly unlikely doesn't mean the entire thing is.