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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:29 am
 


uwish uwish:
Oh would I? I am so happy your opinion of my behavior in a fictitious incident makes you feel better, the fact is the cops shot innocent people. You don't know one dam thing about how I or anyone would react in a tense situation, so stop trying to dodge the fact that the NYPD caused more damage than the armed assailant!

Wow. People who are as easily agitated as yourself should never be allowed to own, let alone carry a gun.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:31 am
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
You've lost Eye....the jack off of all trades, Xort Bus, has brot his supeereeur gnawlidj.



I tried repping ya for that. Funny as fuck! Nearly choked on me coffee!

Done.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:23 pm
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
So you know nothing about it all then eh? I thought so.

How the hell did you come up with that?

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
Yep. Sadly, the average gun owner doesn't have that level of training.
Does your average gun owner daily carry? I'm going to say no. Many of the people that daily carry actualy go out and learn how to shoot safely and effectively. Many private citizens get more range time and fire more rounds than just about all police officers and military personel do in their offical training programs.

$1:
As I'm sure CCW makes one a better shot under fire too.
No, but time spent shooting helps. My suggestion is that private gun owners that as a daily practice carry a weapon are more likely to practice with it than the police.

I could be wrong, I will admit I have no data to support this.

$1:
So when yer ducking behind cover then popping up, squeezing a round or 2 off and ducking back down, the average person will still instinctively carry though the motions of proper marksmanship. Well I'm glad you have more faith in the average person's tactical abilities than I do.

With time and practice yes. Although I don't like how you worded your situation, I get an implication of an officer popping up then shooting 2 shots in a covering effort. I think that if you are having a shoot out with many bystanders you should never shoot unless you think you can hit your target. A nit pick on my part, but I think it would be better to say, 'popping up from cover and waiting for the gunman to expose himself then making a double tap'.

$1:
Right, cuz hitting a moving target with a handgun should be a breeze when they shoot back.
A person that is on the move and shooting isn't very likely to hit you. Other than very close range shooting, or very high rates of fire a person that is shooting on the move* isn't hitting the target. This is why tactical shooting, walking and shooting is a skill that must be practiced to be good at it.

* With slow controled movement it is possible to shoot accurately on the move, but I take it you are talking about someone sprinting for cover, wildly shooting in a general direction.

$1:
Tell ya what sport. You demonstrate that you can hit a moving target 90% of the time while it's shooting at you, and I'll give your point some consideration.
I guess we are talking small arms and not vehicle based weapons? What would you suggest as a means for me to demonstrate this?

Xort Xort:
So, your concern is they shouldn't be using cover fire and using up a full mag on a single target.... and something like this is your solution?
Image


Yes. It needs two hands to use, and gives the shooter much greater control over the direction the gun is pointing.

Due to the very short barrel lenght, and the one handed grip that twists at the wrist, pistols have a very hard time keeping on target when you messure it against something like a rifle, or just about any weapon system that uses two hands to control like a SMG.

That MP7 you pictured has an extendable stock, and a fold down front handle. That lets you brace the gun in the should, and use two hands to control the direction the gun is pointing.

That PWD is just a modern version of the SMG.

I would suggest that the police configure whatever they select in a semi automatic fire and then train their officers how to shoot it safely. Spend time on the range greater than a yearly qualification shoot. Ammo while not free is not hugely expensive. The time and money spent will save lives.

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:53 am
 


Xort Xort:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
So you know nothing about it all then eh? I thought so.

How the hell did you come up with that?

PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
Yep. Sadly, the average gun owner doesn't have that level of training.
Does your average gun owner daily carry? I'm going to say no. Many of the people that daily carry actualy go out and learn how to shoot safely and effectively. Many private citizens get more range time and fire more rounds than just about all police officers and military personel do in their offical training programs.

$1:
As I'm sure CCW makes one a better shot under fire too.
No, but time spent shooting helps. My suggestion is that private gun owners that as a daily practice carry a weapon are more likely to practice with it than the police.

I could be wrong, I will admit I have no data to support this.

$1:
So when yer ducking behind cover then popping up, squeezing a round or 2 off and ducking back down, the average person will still instinctively carry though the motions of proper marksmanship. Well I'm glad you have more faith in the average person's tactical abilities than I do.

With time and practice yes. Although I don't like how you worded your situation, I get an implication of an officer popping up then shooting 2 shots in a covering effort. I think that if you are having a shoot out with many bystanders you should never shoot unless you think you can hit your target. A nit pick on my part, but I think it would be better to say, 'popping up from cover and waiting for the gunman to expose himself then making a double tap'.

$1:
Right, cuz hitting a moving target with a handgun should be a breeze when they shoot back.
A person that is on the move and shooting isn't very likely to hit you. Other than very close range shooting, or very high rates of fire a person that is shooting on the move* isn't hitting the target. This is why tactical shooting, walking and shooting is a skill that must be practiced to be good at it.

* With slow controled movement it is possible to shoot accurately on the move, but I take it you are talking about someone sprinting for cover, wildly shooting in a general direction.

$1:
Tell ya what sport. You demonstrate that you can hit a moving target 90% of the time while it's shooting at you, and I'll give your point some consideration.
I guess we are talking small arms and not vehicle based weapons? What would you suggest as a means for me to demonstrate this?

Xort Xort:
So, your concern is they shouldn't be using cover fire and using up a full mag on a single target.... and something like this is your solution?
Image


Yes. It needs two hands to use, and gives the shooter much greater control over the direction the gun is pointing.

Due to the very short barrel lenght, and the one handed grip that twists at the wrist, pistols have a very hard time keeping on target when you messure it against something like a rifle, or just about any weapon system that uses two hands to control like a SMG.

That MP7 you pictured has an extendable stock, and a fold down front handle. That lets you brace the gun in the should, and use two hands to control the direction the gun is pointing.

That PWD is just a modern version of the SMG.

I would suggest that the police configure whatever they select in a semi automatic fire and then train their officers how to shoot it safely. Spend time on the range greater than a yearly qualification shoot. Ammo while not free is not hugely expensive. The time and money spent will save lives.

Image



Those who neg rep as opposed to debate always reap what they sow.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:37 pm
 


EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Those who neg rep as opposed to debate always reap what they sow.

What sort of debate is "so you know nothing"?

I think I've expressed a level of understanding of firearms far greater than 'knows nothing'. I made a long and detailed arguments to support both my points, but all you had to say was 'hurr durr ur dumb'.

I throw out as much neg rep as I can when people ignore an argument only to chime in with comments about how stupid that person is.

If you would like to join in the topic, my points are: Something like an SMG would let undertrained police use their firearms more accurately and safely. People that daily carry a firearm are likely to be better experinced and trained with those weapons than the police are.

The supporting arugments can be found in my prior posts.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:02 pm
 


Update: It is reported that all the people wounded were hurt by the police, and the shooter they killed wasn't shooting at the police when they shot him (he did try to draw his gun on them, or maybe pointed it at them, which would be more than enough justification to kill him in my mind).

That last report I read said the police started shooting from about 8 feet away.

They fired 14 rounds. The dead man had 10 bullet wounds, which 3 were suggested to be exit wounds.

So they managed to hit the guy 50% of the time from 8 feet away.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:04 pm
 


Xort Xort:
Update: It is reported that all the people wounded were hurt by the police, and the shooter they killed wasn't shooting at the police when they shot him (he did try to draw his gun on them, or maybe pointed it at them, which would be more than enough justification to kill him in my mind).

That last report I read said the police started shooting from about 8 feet away.

They fired 14 rounds. The dead man had 10 bullet wounds, which 3 were suggested to be exit wounds.

So they managed to hit the guy 50% of the time from 8 feet away.


What's your average?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:07 pm
 


100% 50 ft away of course. Geesh, Gunny.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:16 pm
 


Xort Xort:
Update: It is reported that all the people wounded were hurt by the police, and the shooter they killed wasn't shooting at the police when they shot him (he did try to draw his gun on them, or maybe pointed it at them, which would be more than enough justification to kill him in my mind).

That last report I read said the police started shooting from about 8 feet away.

They fired 14 rounds. The dead man had 10 bullet wounds, which 3 were suggested to be exit wounds.

So they managed to hit the guy 50% of the time from 8 feet away.

Do you have the link to this report(s)?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:25 pm
 


50% of the time from 8 feet away...hum sounds like cops marksmanship! we already know where the rest of there bullets went, into the innocent bystanders.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:28 pm
 


uwish uwish:
50% of the time from 8 feet away...hum sounds like cops marksmanship! we already know where the rest of there bullets went, into the innocent bystanders.


How's your stats?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:58 pm
 


uwish uwish:
50% of the time from 8 feet away...hum sounds like cops marksmanship! we already know where the rest of there bullets went, into the innocent bystanders.

According to "reports", it was shrapnel that wounded the bystanders. I don't recall hearing any of them was shot at.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:18 am
 


Being a good or great shot only helps you so much in a stessful situation where you've got an armed, moving suspect in an urban setting shooting back at you.

No stress at the gun range and no consequence for your actions... you can go through the entire shoot in a Zen-like state. Then pat yourself on the back for being so good.

As for me, I'd still rather see the police shooting back at the bad guys than a bunch of armed civilians. People here saying that they would have been better than the police are full of crap.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:28 am
 


raydan raydan:
Being a good or great shot only helps you so much in a stessful situation where you've got an armed, moving suspect in an urban setting shooting back at you.

No stress at the gun range and no consequence for your actions... you can go through the entire shoot in a Zen-like state. Then pat yourself on the back for being so good.

As for me, I'd still rather see the police shooting back at the bad guys than a bunch of armed civilians. People here saying that they would have been better than the police are full of crap.


As a shooter, who is an excellent shot on the range, I admit that when there is someone shooting back I am far from an excellent shot. :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:56 am
 


2Cdo 2Cdo:
raydan raydan:
Being a good or great shot only helps you so much in a stessful situation where you've got an armed, moving suspect in an urban setting shooting back at you.

No stress at the gun range and no consequence for your actions... you can go through the entire shoot in a Zen-like state. Then pat yourself on the back for being so good.

As for me, I'd still rather see the police shooting back at the bad guys than a bunch of armed civilians. People here saying that they would have been better than the police are full of crap.


As a shooter, who is an excellent shot on the range, I admit that when there is someone shooting back I am far from an excellent shot. :oops:


Honesty. + 5


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