[desertdude]

llama66 llama66:

$1:

So, that's absurd logic. I mean if we start demanding condemnation from whole community against actions of few and even after getting response, we still blame them, then I am sorry this world will get more fucked than it is now. Everyone is having some sort of dirty hands. No one is angle here...No one can claim moral superiority over others.

Its not just "a few". Iran has rallies where they burn effigies and burn flags, while chanting "Death to the West", ISIS kills (killed) thousands in the Middle East and in Europe in the name of Allah. Al Qaeda dropped the WTC, bombed embassies, waged war and almost sank the USS Cole. Jeez, those "few" are pretty busy.

If Christians started killing on the scale of these "Few". There would be condemnation and outrage from the Pope down.

Yet as ISIS and Al Qaeda toppled buildings and murdered innocents, the Muslim world was silent.

As for your "Christians just use missiles and drones" to kill and hows that working out, there are protests and marches and a great many people opposed (The Pope even decries the violence). When Jihadi John (may his soul burn in hell) cut the heads off the aid workers, crickets from the Muslim world.

Oh yeah, I'm not Catholic, I'm a Protestant.

I've said a couple of times, Perception is Reality.

Well over the years I've learnt not to get involved in such arguments over the net specially when the other side step in with the attitude of don't talk to me about the facts my mind is already made up and regardless of how much fun I was having watching little fighter being handed his ass to him in a silver platter but there was just so much fail going on here thought I drop by with my 2 cents, not like its going to change any minds or opinions. An exercise in futility if you will.

So first of all Saudi and Iran DO NOT REPRESENT ISLAM even if they would like to think so but in fact quite the opposite, just because they have some of Islam holiest sites does NOT make them leaders or any sort of authority on Islam, let me go on record to say that both Saudi and Iran have done more damage to it than all of the west combined. Iran is anti American for donkey ages now so govt sponsored burning flags and rallies is nothing new, but since you guys like Saudi money and oil you ignore everything and are great buddies with them even when they were pile driving oil prices into the ground, so a little hypocrisy check is in order.

Second of all there is no pope in Islam, no one central figure as the leader of Muslims world wide. So don't expect any statements from someone who doesn't exist

Thirdly save for a few nutbars like Anjem Choudry for example the vast majority of the Muslim world was very upfront in their condemnation of 9/11 and have been of any attacks before and after too, now if you don't care to read about it or your media doesn't cover it, its not "our" fault. ( I think a couple of years ago I think i had a very detailed argument on precisely this subject with either you or rickc, don't remember but anyway like I said an exercise in futility )

Also who do you think was the biggest target of ISIS, who were they fighting, who were their biggest victims and in the end who eventually brought them to the shattered state they are in ( Ok had some help from you guys also along the way in this ) So to say we don't condemn ISIS or are against them is foolish to say the least.

As for a "few" "your side" might not fight under the pretense of any religion but has killed 100's of thousands of Muslim civilians who had nothing to do with 9/11. You attacked Iraq for 9/11 which had nothing to do with it under the false pretense of WMDs and didn't even so much as look harshly in Saudis direction, another check is in order here

And now a generation has grown up in these countries who have seen nothing but war and guess who they blame for it and don't be surprised when some of them lose their shit and come to bite you guys back in the ass, not condoning it, just stating facts.

Finally I have no issues you can say what every you like about Islam and Muslims, doesn't bother me but at least don't be like bart and just facts out of your ass. Or if you are going to be pissed at something be pissed at stuff that factual and not ass facts .

Now back to regular programming.

I was having fun watching fighter squirm and back peddle, I predicted he would be chewed alive by you guys in his introduction thread and you guys didn't disappoint, like I said there can only be one me

[Zipperfish]

It's funny how many claim to be outraged by this guy shooting up a mosque and then proceed upon pages of justification for his actions.

[llama66]

I'm not justifying anything remotely like an attack on a mosque.

I was responding to the assertion that fighter made.

At no point did I advocate or condone as egrigious and cowardly attack on a place of worship

[llama66]

I'm home so, please allow me to answer some of your points Desertdude. My comments stem from the somewhat flippant attitude Fighter had about religious violence. For the record I wish all religion was relegated to the history books. We no longer need religion, as George Carlin put it;

$1:

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

It's bullshit, and horrible, horrible things has been done in the name of this bullshit.

$1:

So first of all Saudi and Iran DO NOT REPRESENT ISLAM even if they would like to think so but in fact quite the opposite, just because they have some of Islam holiest sites does NOT make them leaders or any sort of authority on Islam, let me go on record to say that both Saudi and Iran have done more damage to it than all of the west combined. Iran is anti American for donkey ages now so govt sponsored burning flags and rallies is nothing new, but since you guys like Saudi money and oil you ignore everything and are great buddies with them even when they were pile driving oil prices into the ground, so a little hypocrisy check is in order.

I never said Iran represents all of Islam, however as the seat of Sunni power it does have some pull within the Muslim world. Didn't mention the Saudi's.

$1:

Second of all there is no pope in Islam, no one central figure as the leader of Muslims world wide. So don't expect any statements from someone who doesn't exist

Hence why I pointed out I'm Protestant, we also have no Pope, I merely referenced the Pope to say top religious leader do not condone any violence done in the name of God. Your Imam's could decry the violence and stage protests, my point is compared to the protest for the West, there is no protests throughout the Muslim world, or if there is we do not hear about them.

$1:

Thirdly save for a few nutbars like Anjem Choudry for example the vast majority of the Muslim world was very upfront in their condemnation of 9/11 and have been of any attacks before and after too, now if you don't care to read about it or your media doesn't cover it, its not "our" fault. ( I think a couple of years ago I think i had a very detailed argument on precisely this subject with either you or rickc, don't remember but anyway like I said an exercise in futility )

Wasn't me I don't think... However, people like Anjem Choudry is what really fuels perceptions that the Muslim world does't care. I have several very good Muslim friends, and we've discussed-- at length this perception. I don't think you or Fighter are bad or Horrible people. At all.

$1:

Also who do you think was the biggest target of ISIS, who were they fighting, who were their biggest victims and in the end who eventually brought them to the shattered state they are in ( Ok had some help from you guys also along the way in this ) So to say we don't condemn ISIS or are against them is foolish to say the least.

I posted that absolutely the Muslim world seems to be tearing its self apart. We had no part in Iraq. I merely referenced ISIS as an example because they fly under the banner of Islam.

$1:

As for a "few" "your side" might not fight under the pretense of any religion but has killed 100's of thousands of Muslim civilians who had nothing to do with 9/11. You attacked Iraq for 9/11 which had nothing to do with it under the false pretense of WMDs and didn't even so much as look harshly in Saudis direction, another check is in order here

That's the State's issue. Iraq was Bush Jr. finishing Bush Sr.'s work. Again, Canada did not participate in the Iraq invasion, then Prime Minister Jean Chretien "no" to the invasion, instead Canada committed its self to helping rebuild Iraq.

$1:

And now a generation has grown up in these countries who have seen nothing but war and guess who they blame for it and don't be surprised when some of them lose their shit and come to bite you guys back in the ass, not condoning it, just stating facts.

Its the same here. Those of us who were young and witnessed the opening salvo in the late 90's are now starting to move into our 40's. All of our adult lives have been in war time. Some of us know people or had people from our towns or cities killed, like you we've seen the funerals and shed the tears. This is not unique to your side of the world.
If they do 'lose their shit', do you think that will help or hinder perception? It further exacerbate relations and lead to more restrictions on your travel.

$1:

Finally I have no issues you can say what every you like about Islam and Muslims, doesn't bother me but at least don't be like bart and just facts out of your ass. Or if you are going to be pissed at something be pissed at stuff that factual and not ass facts .

I'm not pissed, in fact I'm pissed that someone desecrated a holy site, I'm not the most religious, but I do understand its importance to some.

Again, I quoted earlier

“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless.
Not to speak is to speak.
Not to act is to act.”

― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

If you are tired of the being painted with the same bush as these people, take action. Prosecute them. Execute them, do what you must to distance your self from them. Otherwise you will seen as complicit in their atrocities, much in the same way some see the Russians or the Germans in their past genocide.


As I've said, all humans distrust what they don't understand. Its part of the Human condition.

[desertdude]

llama66 llama66:

I wish all religion was relegated to the history books. We no longer need religion It's bullshit,.... and horrible, horrible things has been done in the name of this bullshit.

I don't agree with that at all, lot of bad things have been done in the name of various other things be it ideologies, nationalism, politics so on and so forth, doesn't mean they are bad or there is no need for any of them.

A crappy analogy I can give you is if someone doesn't know or can't handle a powerful car like a Ferrari and crashes it, doesn't mean the car is bad, just that the driver is shit. So don't blame the car here.

$1:

I never said Iran represents all of Islam, however as the seat of Sunni power it does have some pull within the Muslim world. Didn't mention the Saudi's.

Correction, it is a Shia ( the minority sect ) majority country and its no seat of power for any type of Islam, nor has any pull with any other Muslim country, in fact most of the Arab countries are against it because they are mostly Sunni majority, Iran's only influence is of shia followers , being a minority majority, its aim is to further its own sects cause in the rest of the muslim world, usually violently. So yeah no one really likes them too much either over here too.

$1:

Hence why I pointed out I'm Protestant, we also have no Pope, I merely referenced the Pope to say top religious leader do not condone any violence done in the name of God. Your Imam's could decry the violence and stage protests, my point is compared to the protest for the West, there is no protests throughout the Muslim world, or if there is we do not hear about them.

First of all protesting individual events doesn't make sense, yes you can protest wars or military attacks but protesting 9/11 in for example in Jordan, doesn't make sense and also the fact its a given majority is against it, so why protest it ? Just to appease our western buddies??? Thats silly if you ask me. And whats the point no one would know about it in the west anyways like I said Muslim countries, organizations, leaders and ordinary folk all have publicly condemned 9/11 attacks and all attacks before and since them, just because you don't hear about them or your press doesn't cover it, its not "our" fault. Yet you say Do More or Not Enough!

$1:

Wasn't me I don't think... However, people like Anjem Choudry is what really fuels perceptions that the Muslim world does't care. I have several very good Muslim friends, and we've discussed-- at length this perception.

Because to be honest its insulting to have to prove every time "look we are the good guys" every time a nutter goes of the rocker, and what does it say about you folk that you rather build your preception on that one nutter than the majority? This is nothing but akin to racism, like even today in the US a black person as to validate that he is a good citizen and not here to rob or rape you and still gets the cops called on his ass, who then beat the shit out of him for just being black at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Hell I got tired of that shit and had to put that big ass disclaimer in my signature because I got tired to having to explain myself to everyone here looky here I'm not the bad guy, I'm not with Al Qeada and I don't wear an eye patch and jump up and down all day shouting death to jews! Should we all get a similar signature tattooed on our arms to negate this preception which your own media has created by only highlighting the negatives.

If anyone commits a robbery, its just a robbery but a Muslim commits a robbery, then its Islams fault and all Muslims are implicit in it because all 1.6 billion of us didn't condemn it the first they we did after getting out of bed this morning. And if you want proof of this, just mosey on down to the Islam omnibus thread in this very forum.

$1:

I posted that absolutely the Muslim world seems to be tearing its self apart. We had no part in Iraq. I merely referenced ISIS as an example because they fly under the banner of Islam.

But all Muslim countries rejected their claim or acknowledged their little kingdom or Caliph and destroyed them, so moot point. And civil war and conflict is a 20-21st century trademark of where ever there is poverty, lack of opportunity etc etc look at Africa, central or South America, The south Asia/Pacific rim there is conflict there in some form or the other.

$1:

That's the State's issue. Iraq was Bush Jr. finishing Bush Sr.'s work. Again, Canada did not participate in the Iraq invasion, then Prime Minister Jean Chretien "no" to the invasion, instead Canada committed its self to helping rebuild Iraq.

Most know the difference but many also don't know the difference, to them you are just one big monolithic bloc The West or best case scenario allies of their enemies

$1:

Its the same here. Those of us who were young and witnessed the opening salvo in the late 90's are now starting to move into our 40's. All of our adult lives have been in war time. Some of us know people or had people from our towns or cities killed, like you we've seen the funerals and shed the tears. This is not unique to your side of the world.

Its not the same watching it on TV or sending someone to some foreign land to fight a war, than a kid who just witnessed his family killed for no reason in bombing, his country going from normal to desolate war torn land and then having to live with the loss of most of his family wiped out along with home and country.

$1:

If they do 'lose their shit', do you think that will help or hinder perception? It further exacerbate relations and lead to more restrictions on your travel.

You think that person gives a shit about your perception? Its a very old story and can't find the link but its very telling

There was once a bright med school student in Pakistan from the Norther tribal regions close to Afghan border, then he learnt his family was killed in a US drone strike he went back to his village for the funeral, never came back to complete his studies but years later was captured as he tried to blow himself at an army checkpoint.

When a person with such a bright future can lose his shit and turn into a suicide bomber don't you think out of the 1000s of people across Afghanistan and Iraq who have gone through similar treatment at the hands of the coalition forces can and have lost their shit! Once again not condoning just stating the facts and just the fact I have to keep on repeating that statement here so the busy bodies here don't have an opportunity to once again label me as some terrorist sympathizer also speaks volumes because it has happened in the past.

$1:

If you are tired of the being painted with the same bush as these people, take action. Prosecute them. Execute them, do what you must to distance your self from them. Otherwise you will seen as complicit in their atrocities, much in the same way some see the Russians or the Germans in their past genocide.

Thats exactly whats happening, how was ISIS broken, there has been an ongoing military campaign in Pakistan by the name of Zarb-e-Azb since 2014 to get rid of terrorists mostly the Taliban and Al Qaeda and Isis type elements and it has been a great success, even the norther close to Afghan border areas have been cleared of the scum, terrorist attacks are almost down to nothing now, even here in the Gulf almost everyday you read about so many people being arrested and given lenghty jail sentences for supporting terrorist organizations so and so forth, but ofcourse you never hear about it, or if you do by some fluke, its either Do More or Not Enough!

$1:

As I've said, all humans distrust what they don't understand. Its part of the Human condition.

Yeah but you have brain, an education, a god given common sense and all the information in the world at your finger tips, you have to spend all but 5 mins to get a better understanding.

Cheers

[Fighter]

CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:

Fighter Fighter:

I think this topic went way ahead...

Lets agree to disagree.

You got your ass handed to you, and now are trying to take the easy way out.

Sad.

-J.

I don't think so

desertdude desertdude:

I was having fun watching fighter squirm and back peddle, I predicted he would be chewed alive by you guys in his introduction thread and you guys didn't disappoint, like I said there can only be one me

I am still alive, well

[CDN_PATRIOT]

Fighter Fighter:

I don't think so

I know so, because I watched it unfold in this thread.



-J.

[martin14]

desertdude desertdude:

So first of all Saudi and Iran DO NOT REPRESENT ISLAM

The Constitution of Saudi Arabia is..... the Koran.

So your false statement is the biggest lie posted this month.


If the rest of this thread is like this, glad I haven't bothered wasting my time.



Interesting, Molyneaux had a Syrian living in Germany on his show,
but one who legally moved in 2008, and went apostate.

He is now pissed because he knows what is coming.


At 36:40, he says 'ISIS is basically the correct Islam, because they follow
everything to the letter'.
Even Molyneaux cringed a bit.

[llama66]

$1:

Its not the same watching it on TV or sending someone to some foreign land to fight a war, than a kid who just witnessed his family killed for no reason in bombing, his country going from normal to desolate war torn land and then having to live with the loss of most of his family wiped out along with home and country.

Except, I know people who were killed, There was a kid from my hometown (a village of less than 1,200 people) who was killed. I have friends who served and were shot in Afghanistan. I used to work with ex-CPS Inspector who lost 8 friends on 9/11. Its not just on the TV for us. Many Canadian's and American's have been touched by the last 17 years of this war.

$1:

You think that person gives a shit about your perception?

Perception shapes reality. You perceive what is real, and these perceptions is what shapes our opinion so, by responding to my posts so verbosely, you clearly do care about my perceptions.

$1:

There was once a bright med school student in Pakistan from the Norther tribal regions close to Afghan border, then he learnt his family was killed in a US drone strike he went back to his village for the funeral, never came back to complete his studies but years later was captured as he tried to blow himself at an army checkpoint.

Doesn't this circle back to the same shit most of us are condemning this piece of shit who shot up the Mosque for? Reacting poorly to a situation.

So because an injustice is paid to you, you are justified in killing people who are probably low level soldiers who don't want to be there and clearly didn't order the strike? 'Cos that'll teach the Generals in Washington a lesson.

Were it up to me, I'd leave the Middle East to its own devices and worry about our own back yard.


Going back to the original point of this thread, people like Alexandre Bissonette is the reason we need to bring back the death penalty.