[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Talk about a fail budget - all those increases and still a huge deficit, not to mention corporations getting off scot-free while Albertans get hosed.

Yea, let's hose the job-creators during a tough economic time.

Ahh, the old BS job creators line...working for Mitt R-Money now are we?



Albertans pay almost three times what corporations do now - and that is unacceptable IMHO.

The line about corporate tax increases killing jobs is also BS.

Companies are suddenly going to pack up and move from here and pay EVEN more in corporate taxes elsewhere in Canada? Doubtful, especially when the oil/lumber/grain/etc. doesn't pack up and move with companies. Alberta already has the lowest tax rate in the country and bumping it a point or two wouldn't make much of a difference.

[herbie]

Alberta needs a provincial sales tax. And America needs a GST.
Unfortunately the best solution often isn't the most popular solution.

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

Ahh, the old BS job creators line...working for Mitt R-Money now are we?



Albertans pay almost three times what corporations do now - and that is unacceptable IMHO.

The line about corporate tax increases killing jobs is also BS.

Companies are suddenly going to pack up and move from here and pay EVEN more in corporate taxes elsewhere in Canada? Doubtful, especially when the oil/lumber/grain/etc. doesn't pack up and move with companies. Alberta already has the lowest tax rate in the country and bumping it a point or two wouldn't make much of a difference.

It's not BS.

Corporations don't just say "aw, darn....guess we'll hand over another couple million to the government".

That cost is passed on to employees, shareholders, suppliers, contractors and CONSUMERS like you and I.

You and others like Tom Mulcair think that a raise to the corporate tax rate just comes purely from the pocket of the company. Nonsense. That's a naive belief born in the 1960's.

$1:

Our empirical analysis
indicates that a higher CIT rate is associated with lower private investment and slower
economic growth. However, the PIT rate does not affect the growth rate and investment
once one controls for provincial fixed effects. Our empirical estimates suggest that a 1
percentage point cut in the CIT rate is related to 0.1–0.2 percentage point increase in
the transitional growth rate.

http://www.ntanet.org/NTJ/65/3/ntj-v65n ... onomic.pdf

From the good people @ HBR:
https://hbr.org/2014/08/who-pays-corpor ... sibly-you/

[OnTheIce]

And another...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... e15374961/

[bootlegga]

herbie herbie:

Alberta needs a provincial sales tax. And America needs a GST.
Unfortunately the best solution often isn't the most popular solution.

In theory, I agree - that fact that Alberta routinely collects $11.7 BILLION in revenues than the next 'low tax' province is exactly why we can't fund infrastructure, services or save any of our royalties.

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Ahh, the old BS job creators line...working for Mitt R-Money now are we?



Albertans pay almost three times what corporations do now - and that is unacceptable IMHO.

The line about corporate tax increases killing jobs is also BS.

Companies are suddenly going to pack up and move from here and pay EVEN more in corporate taxes elsewhere in Canada? Doubtful, especially when the oil/lumber/grain/etc. doesn't pack up and move with companies. Alberta already has the lowest tax rate in the country and bumping it a point or two wouldn't make much of a difference.

It's not BS.

Corporations don't just say "aw, darn....guess we'll hand over another couple million to the government".

That cost is passed on to employees, shareholders, suppliers, contractors and CONSUMERS like you and I.

You and others like Tom Mulcair think that a raise to the corporate tax rate just comes purely from the pocket of the company. Nonsense. That's a naive belief born in the 1960's.

$1:

Our empirical analysis
indicates that a higher CIT rate is associated with lower private investment and slower
economic growth. However, the PIT rate does not affect the growth rate and investment
once one controls for provincial fixed effects. Our empirical estimates suggest that a 1
percentage point cut in the CIT rate is related to 0.1–0.2 percentage point increase in
the transitional growth rate.

http://www.ntanet.org/NTJ/65/3/ntj-v65n ... onomic.pdf

From the good people @ HBR:
https://hbr.org/2014/08/who-pays-corpor ... sibly-you/

No shit sherlock, of course companies often pass increased taxes along to consumers.

However, given that a sales tax is a no-go in this back-asswards province, an increase in corporate taxes would be a way to get around that, now wouldn't it. The benefit would be that everyone would pay it, including visitors to our fair province, unlike increases in income taxes, the new health care 'levy' or service fees (marriage licenses, registry fees and so on) that are borne solely by Albertans.

[Thanos]

Boots, just based on high taxes and high fees that the other provinces charge and that do absolutely nothing to stop their governments from building out of control debts, there are a multitude of places in Canada that are demonstrably worse run than 'ass backwards Alberta'. Between Ontario, Quebec, and BC alone, they've managed to build up over a HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS in provincial debt. Are you seriously going to say that places that charge high fees and have a PST, and still have managed to accrue a debt that other First World countries haven't come close to, are the ones that Alberta should be emulating? If this is what you are saying then you've managed to utter one of the genuinely dumbest opinions I've ever seen posted on this board since I joined CKA eight years ago.

So aside from what appears to be your main bitch that most Albertans will vote for either the PC or the WR, and not the Liberals or NDP that you think will save the province from itself (in spite of the sheer fiscal and economic nightmares that the Libs and Dips have unleashed in practically every other province in this country), what exactly is your solution? Do you offer any solution at all or are you merely posting so you can take a big shit on conservative-minded Albertans who don't vote the way you want them too? Seriously, what are you trying to do here except insult other Albertans?

[OnTheIce]

bootlegga bootlegga:

No shit sherlock, of course companies often pass increased taxes along to consumers.

Companies ALWAYS pass on the cost to consumers.

On one hand, you're saying individuals shouldn't pay anymore all while agreeing that any corporate tax increase will be born by the consumer/individual.

6 of 1, 1/2 dozen of another.

bootlegga bootlegga:

However, given that a sales tax is a no-go in this back-asswards province, an increase in corporate taxes would be a way to get around that, now wouldn't it. The benefit would be that everyone would pay it, including visitors to our fair province, unlike increases in income taxes, the new health care 'levy' or service fees (marriage licenses, registry fees and so on) that are borne solely by Albertans.

A sales tax would be ideal.

[2Cdo]

Thanos Thanos:

Boots, just based on high taxes and high fees that the other provinces charge and that do absolutely nothing to stop their governments from building out of control debts, there are a multitude of places in Canada that are demonstrably worse run than 'ass backwards Alberta'. Between Ontario, Quebec, and BC alone, they've managed to build up over a HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS in provincial debt. Are you seriously going to say that places that charge high fees and have a PST, and still have managed to accrue a debt that other First World countries haven't come close to, are the ones that Alberta should be emulating? If this is what you are saying then you've managed to utter one of the genuinely dumbest opinions I've ever seen posted on this board since I joined CKA eight years ago.

So aside from what appears to be your main bitch that most Albertans will vote for either the PC or the WR, and not the Liberals or NDP that you think will save the province from itself (in spite of the sheer fiscal and economic nightmares that the Libs and Dips have unleashed in practically every other province in this country), what exactly is your solution? Do you offer any solution at all or are you merely posting so you can take a big shit on conservative-minded Albertans who don't vote the way you want them too? Seriously, what are you trying to do here except insult other Albertans?

We'll said.
Maybe spending some time living in a Liberal paradise like Ontario would fix his delusion.

[bootlegga]

Thanos Thanos:

Boots, just based on high taxes and high fees that the other provinces charge and that do absolutely nothing to stop their governments from building out of control debts, there are a multitude of places in Canada that are demonstrably worse run than 'ass backwards Alberta'. Between Ontario, Quebec, and BC alone, they've managed to build up over a HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS in provincial debt. Are you seriously going to say that places that charge high fees and have a PST, and still have managed to accrue a debt that other First World countries haven't come close to, are the ones that Alberta should be emulating? If this is what you are saying then you've managed to utter one of the genuinely dumbest opinions I've ever seen posted on this board since I joined CKA eight years ago.

So aside from what appears to be your main bitch that most Albertans will vote for either the PC or the WR, and not the Liberals or NDP that you think will save the province from itself (in spite of the sheer fiscal and economic nightmares that the Libs and Dips have unleashed in practically every other province in this country), what exactly is your solution? Do you offer any solution at all or are you merely posting so you can take a big shit on conservative-minded Albertans who don't vote the way you want them too? Seriously, what are you trying to do here except insult other Albertans?

The problem is not the NDP or Liberals in this province, it is the conservatives who keep voting in the same government over and over and then wondering why things are not getting better.

Some of the dumbest things I've seen written by any Albertan on here come from you. You rail on and fucking on about the corporatist right wing yahoos in the States and then turn around and vote for the exact same breed of fuck wits here.

As I've said before, the problem with Alberta is Albertans like you.

People too fucking scared of the unknown that you rush like lemmings to vote the same type of morons in over and over and over.

Do I think the NDP or Liberals are guaranteed to solve our problems? Fuck no, but at this point, why not take a chance and give them 4 years? If they totally fuck it up then we vote their asses out in 2020.

It's either that or face draconian cuts from the Wildrose. Most Albertans are not interested in such cuts.

The one thing that Alberta has that none of those other provinces have is huge conservative voter base, which should work to constrain the left wing excesses of which you and the other conservatives are terrified of (almost to the point of hysterics like 1950s conservatives were of Commies).

Having said all of that, the fact that the government takes in $11.7 Billion annually then the next 'low tax' jurisdiction is a big reason why we are in the financial crisis we face right now.

If everyone had chipped in a little bit more over the past decade, we would have had no deficits, no debt and a healthy Heritage Trust Fund. Instead, conservatives like yourselves (irregardless of whether you voted PC or Wildrose) are directly to blame foR it because of the low tax at all costs mantra you have all espoused.

[bootlegga]

2Cdo 2Cdo:

Thanos Thanos:

Boots, just based on high taxes and high fees that the other provinces charge and that do absolutely nothing to stop their governments from building out of control debts, there are a multitude of places in Canada that are demonstrably worse run than 'ass backwards Alberta'. Between Ontario, Quebec, and BC alone, they've managed to build up over a HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS in provincial debt. Are you seriously going to say that places that charge high fees and have a PST, and still have managed to accrue a debt that other First World countries haven't come close to, are the ones that Alberta should be emulating? If this is what you are saying then you've managed to utter one of the genuinely dumbest opinions I've ever seen posted on this board since I joined CKA eight years ago.

So aside from what appears to be your main bitch that most Albertans will vote for either the PC or the WR, and not the Liberals or NDP that you think will save the province from itself (in spite of the sheer fiscal and economic nightmares that the Libs and Dips have unleashed in practically every other province in this country), what exactly is your solution? Do you offer any solution at all or are you merely posting so you can take a big shit on conservative-minded Albertans who don't vote the way you want them too? Seriously, what are you trying to do here except insult other Albertans?

We'll said.
Maybe spending some time living in a Liberal paradise like Ontario would fix his delusion.

No, the delusion is voting for the same government over and over and then wondering why things stay the same.

[Thanos]

So instead of voting for Klein, who I agree set off a lot of the worst policies that were implemented, and his 'severe cuts, you suggest that voting for Lawrence Decore, who loudly promised 'brutal cuts' at every campaign stop he made, would have made things better. This from the man who claims to be against any sort of cuts at all.

If you can't see that there's a massive difference between Canadian conservatives and that TeaBircher Bible-thumping rabble in the US, then you're no different than Andy and there's no point in bothering to talk to you about any of this anymore.

[andyt]

Thanos Thanos:

If you can't see that there's a massive difference between Canadian conservatives and that TeaBircher Bible-thumping rabble in the US, then you're no different than Andy and there's no point in bothering to talk to you about any of this anymore.

Ouch, Boots, that's got to sting.

@thanos - I take you no longer have any problem with my using your name in posts?

[bootlegga]

OnTheIce OnTheIce:

bootlegga bootlegga:

However, given that a sales tax is a no-go in this back-asswards province, an increase in corporate taxes would be a way to get around that, now wouldn't it. The benefit would be that everyone would pay it, including visitors to our fair province, unlike increases in income taxes, the new health care 'levy' or service fees (marriage licenses, registry fees and so on) that are borne solely by Albertans.

A sales tax would be ideal.

Yes, it would make the most sense, but the lemmings in this province will never let it happen.

[bootlegga]

Thanos Thanos:

So instead of voting for Klein, who I agree set off a lot of the worst policies that were implemented, and his 'severe cuts, you suggest that voting for Lawrence Decore, who loudly promised 'brutal cuts' at every campaign stop he made, would have made things better. This from the man who claims to be against any sort of cuts at all.

Nice red herring there - 1993 and 2015 are two very different times. In 1993 we did need cuts to get spending under control - but Klein cut to the bone and refused to invest in schools, hospitals, roads and wound up laying off thousands of Albertans. Today, we are in much better shape financially and don't need massive cuts - we need stable revenue instead of relying on the non-renewable rollercoaster.

From what I remember of the 1993 election (one of the first I was allowed to vote in) - Decore did promise severe cutbacks, but not nearly as harsh as the ones Klein ushered in. Decore also promised to resume saving royalties in the HTF - something Klein didn't do and so frittered away not only $13 billion, but also tens of BILLIONS in interest. Had Klein the guts to re-instate the 30% payments Lougheed started, we'd have over $100 billion in the HTF and this blip wouldn't be a big deal. Instead, the cheapo Charlies who voted PC screwed over not just the current generation, but future generations of Albertans too.

Thanos Thanos:

If you can't see that there's a massive difference between Canadian conservatives and that TeaBircher Bible-thumping rabble in the US, then you're no different than Andy and there's no point in bothering to talk to you about any of this anymore.

You can throw around insults and ad hominems all you want, but the fact is you and Andy are cut from the same cloth, just opposite sides of the bolt.

And I never made any such blanket statement, "Canadian conservatives and that TeaBircher Bible-thumping rabble in the US [are the same]".

They are not. There are lots of Canadian conservatives who are not crazy wackos and are just doing what they feel is best for the citizens in their jurisdiction.

What I said (or at the very least meant) was that the Wildrose and Tea Party are strikingly similar in many ways - here's just a few points:

1. Led by an attractive and outspoken, yet politically inexperienced woman in its heyday
2. Small c-conservatives who want to starve the government of revenues through low, low taxes
3. Want to cut services to the bone/privatize everything else

Most similar/damning of all - social conservatives still run the Wildrose show. I mean, your beloved Wildrose voted down an amendment to party bylaws to protect gays (and lots of other groups like women, minorities, etc) last fall. They also voted against GSAs at Christmas until they were forced to cave in because Alberta dragged them kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

Let's not forget good old Bill Jarvis who just this weekend said (into an open mic no less), "We need to get more brown people in front!" At least this time the Wildrose leader was smart enough to turf the bozo right away instead of standing up for him like Smith did in 2012.