[james5193]

I've got it, why don't we make it illegal to get pregnant, when pregnancy is not desired.Have them sign some sort of confession that the pregnancy was unintended, pay some sort of fine or punishment, but leave abortion legal.For is not the unwanted pregnancy what we are all against, all in agreement on.None of us want the unwanted pregnancy, let's make that illegal.Don't insurance rates go up for an individual when he or she participates in dangerous activity.Why should I pay for unwanted pregnancys, when they are so avoidable.But please quit telling me that the cancellation of a pregnancy, with the destruction of the living matter within the woman's womb is what you want as a liberty.The liberty that you want is to have as little resistance as possible to participate in unresponsible sex.The evil is, in not taking sex as serious as it should be.Let's be honest.

[Ripcat]

james5193 james5193:

I've got it, why don't we make it illegal to get pregnant, when pregnancy is not desired.Have them sign some sort of confession that the pregnancy was unintended, pay some sort of fine or punishment, but leave abortion legal.For is not the unwanted pregnancy what we are all against, all in agreement on.None of us want the unwanted pregnancy, let's make that illegal.Don't insurance rates go up for an individual when he or she participates in dangerous activity.Why should I pay for unwanted pregnancys, when they are so avoidable.But please quit telling me that the cancellation of a pregnancy, with the destruction of the living matter within the woman's womb is what you want as a liberty.The liberty that you want is to have as little resistance as possible to participate in unresponsible sex.The evil is, in not taking sex as serious as it should be.Let's be honest.

Nice necro!

While I could agree that the right to an abortion is being abused, to make unwanted pregnancies illegal is really just creating the same problem that assisted in making abortion legal. Women getting seriously injured or dying getting improper and unsafe abortions.

[DerbyX]

Brenda Brenda:

ROTFL Probably

$1:

If the parents can't or won't take the responsibility, there are many others who would be very happy to take on the honor. In view of these facts, the 'rape' angle doesn't fly!

You think a raped woman will carry a rapists child for 9 months, and feel good about that, and give it away? I think men should really be educated here... Not only about pregnancies, but also about women in general! Jesus, how the hell can you make such a statement!

Anytime you want to teach me all about women Bren, I'm ready!

[Lemmy]

What people tend to overlook when they consider abortion is the costs of making abortion illegal. What happens is desperate women (with a disproportionate number being young, single, uneducated and poor) will go to quacks, putting their health at risk, having unsanitary, back-alley, coat-hanger abortions. The Supreme Court, when it struck down the abortion law, didn't do so because it agreed that abortion was, necessarily, a good thing. They arrived at their decision as women's health issue. Abortion laws put women's health in peril. If someone is desperate for an abortion, they will find a way to get it. In Canada, they can get it by a trained practitioner in a sanitary environment. I don't "like" abortions. I would try to talk anyone out of one. But I'd rather women have the opportunity to get one safely.

[raydan]

Lemmy Lemmy:

What people tend to overlook when they consider abortion is the costs of making abortion illegal. What happens is desperate women (with a disproportionate number being young, single, uneducated and poor) will go to quacks, putting their health at risk, having unsanitary, back-alley, coat-hanger abortions. The Supreme Court, when it struck down the abortion law, didn't do so because it agreed that abortion was, necessarily, a good thing. They arrived at their decision as women's health issue. Abortion laws put women's health in peril. If someone is desperate for an abortion, they will find a way to get it. In Canada, they can get it by a trained practitioner in a sanitary environment. I don't "like" abortions. I would try to talk anyone out of one. But I'd rather women have the opportunity to get one safely.

I agree.

Abortion is a necessary evil. I'd rather live in a world where it doesn't exist but I have to be realistic. Talk to the woman. Give her options, counseling and support. She has to be sure (as much as possible) that her decision (abortion - keep the child - put up for adoption) will not be regretted later.

One thing I hate is when people use abortion as a contraceptive.

[Lemmy]

raydan raydan:

I agree.

Abortion is a necessary evil. I'd rather live in a world where it doesn't exist but I have to be realistic. Talk to the woman. Give her options, counseling and support. She has to be sure (as much as possible) that her decision (abortion - keep the child - put up for adoption) will not be regretted later.

One thing I hate is when people use abortion as a contraceptive.

[Pseudonym]

Lemmy Lemmy:

What people tend to overlook when they consider abortion is the costs of making abortion illegal. What happens is desperate women (with a disproportionate number being young, single, uneducated and poor) will go to quacks, putting their health at risk, having unsanitary, back-alley, coat-hanger abortions.

You can't legislate on the possibility that someone will make a poor decision because of such. That comes out to a purely emotive argument. It is sad if someone breaks the law, whether it be due to drug law, immigration law, or abortion law. However, that CANNOT be the determining factor in one's decision. If it is a human life in the womb, then to willfully remove that life is MURDER. You can't equivocate or dodge around that. All else becomes window dressing.

Lemmy Lemmy:

The Supreme Court, when it struck down the abortion law, didn't do so because it agreed that abortion was, necessarily, a good thing. They arrived at their decision as women's health issue. Abortion laws put women's health in peril.

The Supreme Court overstepped its bounds when it did so. The Supreme Court does not determine what is right. They determine what is constitutional. Roe v. Wade was a vast breach of judicial power that has continued to harm America to this day.

Lemmy Lemmy:

If someone is desperate for an abortion, they will find a way to get it. In Canada, they can get it by a trained practitioner in a sanitary environment. I don't "like" abortions. I would try to talk anyone out of one. But I'd rather women have the opportunity to get one safely.

If it is wrong, it is wrong, regardless of whether or not society has it in a nice, clean office or not. The fundamental issue that everyone must address is whether or not it is human life. Nothing else matters in the issue.

[Brenda]

It's life when it can exist outside the womb, imo. That makes a 12 week abortion not murder, and I refuse to be insulted like that.

[Pseudonym]

I'm sorry if it is insulting, but I can't say it any other way. The determination of when life begins is the only issue that matters. If it is life, then it is murder. If it is not, then it is not. Whether we like it, hate it, or what have you is irrelevant. The right to life for an innocent human being is predominant over all concerns for convenience, sorrow, and wishful thinking.

Once we have that established, then we can get down to debating and figure out when exactly that point is. Shall we dance?

[Brenda]

That is not what you said in your previous post. There you said it was life, thus murder.
I don't think life starts at conception. I think it begins outside the womb.
BUT,I also don't agree with almost full term carried babies being aborted. I think there should be rules and regulations. Something like: abortion is illegal if the baby could survive birth on its own (something like after 24 weeks or so).

[Pseudonym]

IF you read my previous post, you will notice that I use IF, not IS. I apologize for the confusion.

EDIT: But as for my own personal position, I do, in fact, regard the fetus as a unique human life from the moment of conception.

[DerbyX]

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

I'm sorry if it is insulting, but I can't say it any other way. The determination of when life begins is the only issue that matters. If it is life, then it is murder. If it is not, then it is not. Whether we like it, hate it, or what have you is irrelevant. The right to life for an innocent human being is predominant over all concerns for convenience, sorrow, and wishful thinking.

Once we have that established, then we can get down to debating and figure out when exactly that point is. Shall we dance?

No. When it can live on its own accord its a life. If simply by removing it from the womb is a death sentence then its not yet a life anymore then a sperm or egg cell is a life. You can spin all you want but until then its only a potential life no matter how much it hurts to think like that.

It does not have a right to life. In fact the womans own body will decide for itself often enough. Miscarriages are actually far more common then believed in that they can and often occur even before pregnancy is detected. Fertilized eggs don't implant, don't grow, or simply self terminate. Biologically speaking its simply part of the life process.

A womens right to choose what happens to her body is the only right there is because ultimately if she is determined not to carry the fetus to term then she can and will find a way up to and including suicide.

Her body, her choice. All other considerations are secondary.

[Lemmy]

Pseudonym Pseudonym:

You can't legislate on the possibility that someone will make a poor decision because of such. That comes out to a purely emotive argument. It is sad if someone breaks the law, whether it be due to drug law, immigration law, or abortion law. However, that CANNOT be the determining factor in one's decision. If it is a human life in the womb, then to willfully remove that life is MURDER. You can't equivocate or dodge around that. All else becomes window dressing.

The Supreme Court of Canada bases its constitutionality decisions on something called the Oakes test. What the court does is asks itself 3 questions: Does the law achieve a government goal in a reasonable manner? Does the law interfere with peoples' rights as little as possible? Does the law create a greater problem than existed/would exist without the law? When we apply the Oakes test to the abortion issue, we get answers of "pass", "fail", "fail". The abortion law ultimately fails the constitutionality test in Canada because women being butchered by quacks is a greater problem than aborting pregnancies. I know it's not a perferct solution, but in this sort of "cost-benefit analysis", the Supreme Court of Canada got it right.

[james5193]

Nice necro!

While I could agree that the right to an abortion is being abused, to make unwanted pregnancies illegal is really just creating the same problem that assisted in making abortion legal. Women getting seriously injured or dying getting improper and unsafe abortions.[/quote]

I have heard this style of logic many times when supporting why abortion should be legal, because of unsafe abortions.If this logic has merit, then does it not make sense to make herion use legal, because of the dirty needles(Hepatitas, infections, and AIDS)that occur because these people are going to do it anyway, whether it is legal or not.And does not the herion user have the right over his or hers body, and can put whatever they want into it, just like the woman has to take whatever she wants out of it.This style of logic could also be applied to prostitution, and euthanasia.
No, abortion is not the bullet leaving the chamber, it's the misuse of sex, plain and simple.To failsafe it, continues the causes of the misuse of sex.

[romanP]

Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:

Brenda Brenda:

ROTFL Probably

$1:

If the parents can't or won't take the responsibility, there are many others who would be very happy to take on the honor. In view of these facts, the 'rape' angle doesn't fly!

You think a raped woman will carry a rapists child for 9 months, and feel good about that, and give it away? I think men should really be educated here... Not only about pregnancies, but also about women in general! Jesus, how the hell can you make such a statement!

OMG! raped women have been bearing the children for hundreds of years, it only recently that women have talked themselves into a frenzy whene they believe it is absolutely esential to kill the baby for the henous crimes of the father.

Oh, well, it's been okay to be unsympathetic toward rape victims for hundreds of years, so why start now, right?
Hell, why don't we just make rape legal and blame the victims!