[Yank-in-NY]

Because my dear lily some people like to have the gun in one hand and the bible in the other.

[Bodah]

Age of consent should be 57

[ridenrain]

$1:

In fact, as federal Justice Minister Vic Toews made clear in a follow-up letter to newspapers yesterday, he was motivated by the liberal tendency to regard the state as a substitute parent, not by the conservative instinct to punish. "Young people who engage in criminal behaviour before the age of 12 ... do not need incarceration, nor have I suggested they do," said the Minister. "In some cases, young people have had extensive police and social service interaction before age 12 ... To prevent them from falling through the cracks, we need to discuss whether the courts should have some legal recourse to intervene in a positive fashion."

That's just fancy talk for secret agenda

$1:

Several years ago, when Winnipeg was plagued with a rash of car thefts by under-12s, police expressed their frustration at their inability to deal with these kids who, when caught, brazenly told the officers they knew the law couldn't do anything to them. Police dubbed one of the repeat offenders the Tiny Terror, but they had to wait until he turned 12 before they could formally charge him. In 2005, Brian Smiley, a spokesman for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corp., said: "We hear of kids as young as nine and 10 years old getting behind the wheel of a vehicle and driving it."

Adults would have to be in the throes of extreme naivete to believe these kids don't understand that stealing a car is wrong. Or that the 11-year-old arrested last year in Burnaby, B.C., in connection with a series of armed muggings didn't know it's wrong to threaten people with a knife and take their money. Yet, all police could do was release the child to his family.

source

Are you suggesting that these children are just having flashbacks to Grand Theft Auto?

[xerxes]

lily lily:

I was glancing through the paper today and noticed a couple of articles and letters to the editor. One was about the young offender act... and how 12 year olds certainly know what they're doing and that they should be held accountable for their actions. Another was about the age of consent, and rah rah Harper for raising it to 16 (or considering it... I forget the status of that one).

So... at what age are kids expected to be responsible? Why are they "adult" enough at 11 or 12 to face criminal charges, yet not mature enough till they're 16 when it comes to something like sex?


You conservatives can be so confusing.

Because kids learning about sex is much more of a threat to conservatives than crime. (j/k)

[xerxes]

You're right Lily, it is a weird dichotomy. Teens (and tweens I guess in some cases) can be tried as adults but can't legally drink alcohol.

[ridenrain]

It's very clear:

If they commit a crime and know it's wrong, they can be punished even if they are under 12, but all children under 16 are protected from adult sexual predators. The point of the AOC was not to prevent "puppy love" but to prevent child abuse.
Even the lefties must be against the sexual abuse of children.

Vic isn’t saying that all bad children will go to work a camp, that’s just the way you’re reading it.

[ridenrain]

Congrats.

I guess he needs to steal the car so he has some place TO have sex.

[Hardy]

$1:

Vic Toews made clear in a follow-up letter to newspapers yesterday, he was motivated by the liberal tendency to regard the state as a substitute parent, not by the conservative instinct to punish.

It's funny how that has worked through history.

In Roman times, fathers used to exercise a right known as patria potestas:

$1:

patria potestas: the right of the pater familias over the persons and property of the members of his agnatic family and slaves. It included the right to put to death and entitlement to virtually all property and contractual rights acquired by his dependents.

Male children, upon reaching adulthood, were no longer subject to patria potestas, whereas women remained wards of their father until they married, at which point they became wards of their husbands, i.e., they were regarded as in a permanent state of childhood.

Some of this lasted into modern times, even in western countries. In one criminal case of the mid-1900s, one of the most devious criminal lawyers of the time exploited this dramatically. A very intoxicated couple were driving home after a party, and were pulled over, with the wife at the wheel. The lawyer dug up a law from the late 1700s or early 1800s which said that a woman could not be prosecuted for any crime she committed while acting under her husband's orders. The wife said that her husband had ordered her to drive, and charges against her had to be dropped. (The law was changed almost immediately after.)

But, for the most part, government has decided to take patria potestas away from dad and exercise those rights for itself. Government as parent of all. This, also, has thousands of years of history behind it, going back into prehistory when the tribe or clan was both family and government. There is a reason that the root word for "patriotism" is pater (father). When the government stopped being the clan, it isn't surprising that it asserted its right to retain much of the parental role.

The only way in which most liberals and most conservatives seem to disagree is about how that superparent should act. Liberals tend to want a nurturing mom who prepares meals and reads to the kids, conservatives more often favour a stern dad who punishes family members and chases strangers off the property.

Fatherland or motherland, take your pick.

[Arctic_Menace]

Anyone who really believes that the age of consent will make teens stop having sex, doesn't know what happens these days.

You could raise it to twenty, and young kids would still do it.

Having said that, raising it to 16 would help to block pedophiles.

[Persiana]

Fascinating thread & topic!!!

Some very good points as well, I'm going to give this some thought & then come back to it

[Thematic-Device]

ridenrain ridenrain:

all children under 16 are protected from adult sexual predators. The point of the AOC was not to prevent "puppy love" but to prevent child abuse.
Even the lefties must be against the sexual abuse of children.

Vic isn’t saying that all bad children will go to work a camp, that’s just the way you’re reading it.

Did they include a romeo and juliet clause in it? (that if the ages are within a certain range, say 2 years apart, its not a crime) I've heard conflicting reports on this. If they did, I'd say 18 would be fine, if they didn't then they should change the law. Mere assurances that the government won't try two 15 year olds for having sex is not sufficient (rather, try one of them)

[Arctic_Menace]

Scenario:

Let's say my girlfriend and I get to the point of consenting sex, if she is 14/15 and I am 17/18, if we both consent to it, we will do it. Some law in writing is not going to stop us. I can also consider it a form of protest.

[ridenrain]

Arctic: That's dumb. It was never about stopping dumb kids from messing about. It was about adults preying on kids. Even if it''s "true love" between folks of bigger age gaps, then some one needs to complain , and the authorities don't know if everyones happy.

But now folks who prey on 14 year old prostitutes can be charged and the kids can be helped. It's only 2 years but that's a life time if we can get these kids off the streets and off the slavery of prostitution.

Lilly.
You have kids ? Mine is 10.
If I have done nothing than she knows that stealing a car or having sex with someone way older is wrong. Hell, she was a bit ticked that a friend burned a dvd for her.
If you're kids can't tell right or wrong by 12 or even 14, who's fault is that? Who's kids are they?

[grainfedprairieboy]

lily lily:

So... at what age are kids expected to be responsible? Why are they "adult" enough at 11 or 12 to face criminal charges, yet not mature enough till they're 16 when it comes to something like sex?


You conservatives can be so confusing.

Its not confusing.

Some types of crime are irrespective of age. If you are 8 or 80 and steal a car you are committing a crime regardless of your age. Your age only comes into play in determining your punishment, which in Canada the threat of is usually used rather then a real punishment.

Now other types of crime are age imperative. Sex obviously, but selling tobacco or alcohol to minors, allowing minors into lounges, abortion in some countries, gambling, voting etc.

[ridenrain]

You are desperately spinning this for all it's worth. Take off you're Libertal glasses and put on you're parent glasses.

lily lily:

Yes, because we all know the johns are such law-abiding citizens that they'll respect the new age of consent laws, and only hire a hooker that's old enough to drive.

But now folks who prey on 14 year old prostitutes can be charged and the kids can be helped. It's just another tool to fix the shit that Trudeau dumped on Canadian cities. It's only 2 years but that's a life time if we can get these kids off the streets and off the slavery of prostitution.

lily lily:

Once again.... why is a kid old enough to stand trial at 12, but too young to have sex for another 4 years?

You are being dumb on purpose.

Now if a child has made a career of crime, such as those examples I posted, we can legally do something about it instead of simply dumping them back at the parents trailer, or whatever. Instead of running away they can be made wards of the state and hopefully get the help they need.

Get this clear:
The age of concent PROTECTS children fom being molested by people who are much older. It's makes it a crime for older people to solicit sex from anyone under 16, not 14
Even as a "progressive" parent, how can you deny that is a step foreward.