[Strutz]

$1:

Russian President Vladimir Putin's decision to put his country's nuclear arsenal on high alert last weekend has sparked hope that Ottawa and Washington will finally act with urgency in upgrading North America's defences.

Successive Canadian and American governments have been promising for years to modernize the North American Aerospace Defence Command, or Norad, which was first created during the Cold War to protect against a Soviet attack.

Yet despite increasingly urgent warnings from senior military commanders on both sides of the border about the need to address a growing number of gaps in North America's defences, many are still waiting for Canada to act.
...
The federal Liberal government insists modernizing Norad is a top priority. To that end, Canada and the U.S. have issued several joint statements over the years affirming the need to upgrade the system. Ottawa also set aside an initial $163 million for the effort last year.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/ukraine ... -1.5806978

[bootlegga]

Thanos Thanos:

None of this will ever happen, no matter what is proposed. Our politicians don't have the stomach to regard it as a critically important issue, not when they can spend money instead on multiculturalism and, I dunno, monogrammed golf balls to placate the "small town cheap" sort of crowd.

I highly doubt Canadians would be accepting of the cost required to comprehensively reform our military from top to bottom. And why should we? When a billion dollar frigate ends up coming in at five times the cost projected there's no way in hell we should ever have faith in either our military leadership (especially the careerists in DND Procurement) or any of the politicians who talk the grand plan but somehow never follow through on seeing in becoming reality.

I agree with you, but the fact is defence spending doesn't get votes, which is what Harper found out after he got elected in 2006. He promised big on defence, then barely squeaked out another minority in 2008. He only got a majority in 2011 because he cut taxes (GST and corporate taxes mostly). As soon as he needed a surplus for the 2015 election, he clawed back billions from Defence and Veterans Affairs so he had one on paper. Modern Liberals have never really cared to spend on defence, and only do so grudgingly.

And while I agree that 'Canadianization' of our weapons system purchases often causes big increases in cost, the new batch of frigates are really only frigates in name. They are roughly the same size and have many of the same capabilities of the USN's Arleigh Burke class, and in some respects will actually be better. However, given that the CSC is a new design vs an 1980s design (Arleigh Burkes), that shouldn't surprise too many people.

The current Halifax frigates are about 4,800 tons fully loaded, while the new Type 26s CSC 'frigates' are just over 8,000 tons fully loaded! Each new Flight III Arleigh Burke costs about $5 B USD, which actually is more then the CSCs are projected to cost (a huge part of the $77 B price tag includes maintenance, operations, repairs, etc. over a 35-40 year service life).

If our Navy brass had been willing to purchase actual frigates, we could have had the FREMM class ships which are closer in size to our current frigates and would have come in at about third to half the price.

Somewhat ironically, the US recently inked a deal to build 20 FREMM class frigates to supplement their aging destroyer fleet while they wait for the new DDX design to be finalized and then get under way. The US is paying about $795 million for the first of those ships.

[DrCaleb]

Canada looks to reinforce Arctic sovereignty through diplomacy, military, says minister

Because Russia is so committed to diplomacy,t hey won't even admit they have troops in Ukraine.

We're screwed if diplomacy is the answer.

[rickc]

[bootlegga]

rickc rickc:

I know conservatives on both sides of the border love dunking on Trudeau, but until the budget comes out, you've got no leg to stand on. It comes out in a few weeks, and I'm sure we'll see increased defence spending, the only question is how much.

And as I've said many times here, the reality is that it isn't politicians who are to blame for Canada's low defence spending, it's Canadians themselves. Conservative voters want tax cuts and corporate welfare, while left wing voters (Liberal, NDP, Green) want more spending on healthcare and social programs.

Regarding the criticisms in that video, Canada has pretty decent Arctic capabilities, including more icebreakers than the US and our ice-strengthened hull AOPVs, the first of which transited the NW passage last fall as part of a circumnavigation of North America. We have also spent the last decade improving our defence footprint in the Arctic and have committed to upgrading the North Warning System. Having said that, the truth is that we should have bought nuke subs in the 90s, and would have had the USSR not collapsed. But that purchase (and many others) were part of the 'peace dividend' instead.

I find it interesting that the presenter says we are laggards compared to Japan, which spends exactly 1% of GDP on defence (Canada spends about 1.4%) - US also criticizes Japan for not spending enough based on the per capita GDP ratio. The reason Japan spends so much more than Canada is because the Japanese economy is several times larger than Canada's which means that 1% equals about $50 billion USD annually. Even if Canada hit the 2% Trump wanted us to hit, we'd still only spend $42 billion Canadian, which is still a third less than Japan currently spends.

NATO is formally committed to come to Canada's defence no matter who attacks us or where we are attacked. Fortunately, the only time Article 5 has been invoked was after 9/11, when Canada and the rest of NATO joined the US in Afghanistan. Should NATO decline to come to our aid, it will be because the alliance has collapsed.

About the only thing she got right is that Canada needs to spend more on defence. Let's hope when the budget comes out in a few weeks, it will happen.

[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

Canada looks to reinforce Arctic sovereignty through diplomacy, military, says minister

Because Russia is so committed to diplomacy,t hey won't even admit they have troops in Ukraine.

We're screwed if diplomacy is the answer.

I teased Rick a bit for that video, but he's not entirely wrong.

The Liberals need to pull their heads out of their asses and properly fund the armed forces - a commitment to buy new AIP subs would be a good start. That would help protect the Arctic and show we're serious about our own defence.

[rickc]

bootlegga bootlegga:

rickc rickc:

I know conservatives on both sides of the border love dunking on Trudeau, but until the budget comes out, you've got no leg to stand on. It comes out in a few weeks, and I'm sure we'll see increased defence spending, the only question is how much.

And as I've said many times here, the reality is that it isn't politicians who are to blame for Canada's low defence spending, it's Canadians themselves. Conservative voters want tax cuts and corporate welfare, while left wing voters (Liberal, NDP, Green) want more spending on healthcare and social programs.

Regarding the criticisms in that video, Canada has pretty decent Arctic capabilities, including more icebreakers than the US and our ice-strengthened hull AOPVs, the first of which transited the NW passage last fall as part of a circumnavigation of North America. We have also spent the last decade improving our defence footprint in the Arctic and have committed to upgrading the North Warning System. Having said that, the truth is that we should have bought nuke subs in the 90s, and would have had the USSR not collapsed. But that purchase (and many others) were part of the 'peace dividend' instead.

I find it interesting that the presenter says we are laggards compared to Japan, which spends exactly 1% of GDP on defence (Canada spends about 1.4%) - US also criticizes Japan for not spending enough based on the per capita GDP ratio. The reason Japan spends so much more than Canada is because the Japanese economy is several times larger than Canada's which means that 1% equals about $50 billion USD annually. Even if Canada hit the 2% Trump wanted us to hit, we'd still only spend $42 billion Canadian, which is still a third less than Japan currently spends.

NATO is formally committed to come to Canada's defence no matter who attacks us or where we are attacked. Fortunately, the only time Article 5 has been invoked was after 9/11, when Canada and the rest of NATO joined the US in Afghanistan. Should NATO decline to come to our aid, it will be because the alliance has collapsed.

About the only thing she got right is that Canada needs to spend more on defence. Let's hope when the budget comes out in a few weeks, it will happen.

Are your ice breakers armed? If they are not, they should be.

That website that I posted is from India. Its total purpose is pushing anti Chinese propaganda. Don't get me wrong here, I am very anti Chinese but I do have my limits. China could cure cancer today and that site would be bitching about it tomorrow claiming that it is some sort of conspiracy for China to take over the world. Its only been since the Ukraine invasion started that they have discussed anything other than China. The past few weeks they have taken on an anti NATO tilt seeing as how India has always been partial to Russia, and appears to be backing Russia in several ways. You notice how she made the crack about how Nato has failed the Ukraine when the Ukraine is not even a member of NATO? The site is total 100 percent propaganda. Its intention is to drive wedges between NATO members by sowing seeds of doubt. I just thought that it was interesting that someone outside of the west would take such a hard look at Canada's military.

[DrCaleb]

The video didn't say anything we haven't said already around here.

[rickc]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The video didn't say anything we haven't said already around here.

True enough if all we are discussing is Canada's military shortcomings. I posted the video to show the incredibly fast (and scary) changing geopolitics that are happening today. Before the invasion of the Ukraine, the number one bad guy on the planet was China. Our factories are not closing and moving to Russia. Very little can be purchased from Russia. I like the vast majority of Americans have absolutely nothing in my home that was made in Russia. There are probably thousands of things made in China in my home. India is one of the most populous countries on the planet. They share a border with each other. They do not like each other. We could count on India as a counter weight against China. We could boycott Chinese made goods and offer India a favored nation trade agreement. We could shutter Chinese factories and relocate them to one of their adversaries located right on their border. Now that is not so certain.

An Indian site totally dedicated to anti Chinese propaganda has not made one anti Chinese post since the Ukraine invasion began. Not one. It has all been replaced with anti west, anti NATO propaganda. In 1939 the Soviet Union attempted to form an alliance with Great Britain and France to counter moves being made by Germany. Britain and France did not want to reach an agreement with the Soviet Union for one reason or another. The Soviet Union than changed course and signed an agreement with Germany, thus insuring the invasion of Poland and WW2. India putting aside its differences with China and stating that they will buy Russian oil (helping bypass the sanctions against Russia), and spreading anti west propaganda is a major geopolitical shift that no one seen coming just a few weeks ago. Imagine a Russian, Chinese, Indian alliance. Not a pleasant thought. Things are changing very fast. We have to be very careful in the next few weeks/months. The rest of the world is not just going to stand around and watch as the events in the Ukraine play out. They have their own agendas as well. No better time to make a move than when the west is preoccupied in Europe. All countries in the west should be drastically increasing their military spending and manpower right now. Drastically and now being the key words.

[DrCaleb]

rickc rickc:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

The video didn't say anything we haven't said already around here.

True enough if all we are discussing is Canada's military shortcomings. I posted the video to show the incredibly fast (and scary) changing geopolitics that are happening today. Before the invasion of the Ukraine, the number one bad guy on the planet was China. Our factories are not closing and moving to Russia. Very little can be purchased from Russia. I like the vast majority of Americans have absolutely nothing in my home that was made in Russia. There are probably thousands of things made in China in my home. India is one of the most populous countries on the planet. They share a border with each other. They do not like each other. We could count on India as a counter weight against China. We could boycott Chinese made goods and offer India a favored nation trade agreement. We could shutter Chinese factories and relocate them to one of their adversaries located right on their border. Now that is not so certain.

The same could be said of India, and how much influence it has on Russia. I have many things in my home from India, so do you. Most every spice in your cupboard is from India, or a neighbouring country. Especially black pepper.

But India is a close ally of Russia. They could end the war on Ukraine if they put their foot down and told Russia it was doing the same as the West, and shutting the door on Russian imports.

rickc rickc:

An Indian site totally dedicated to anti Chinese propaganda has not made one anti Chinese post since the Ukraine invasion began. Not one. It has all been replaced with anti west, anti NATO propaganda.

Not unusual. The enemy of my friend is my enemy. I don't take it personally, because I don't really give a shit what they think. It's an attitude that has worked well for me.