[electricbuford]

I would like to hear some views about the Arrow as to the reasons why it is still important to canadians today . In addition , do you have any suggestions for a world class technological endeavor that Canada could do today , or in the near future ?

[RoyalHighlander]

electricbuford electricbuford:

I would like to hear some views about the Arrow as to the reasons why it is still important to canadians today . In addition , do you have any suggestions for a world class technological endeavor that Canada could do today , or in the near future ?

If you go throught the site I think you will find a ton of info on it, plus links to other site about it

[electricbuford]

Already checked out the links on this site , that's what prompted me to post this topic . I'm interested in what members of THIS site have to say , especially about future ideas ( if any ) . Cheers !

[RoyalHighlander]

Well the short version was Diefenbaker was in a way forced to scrap the avro at the behest of the US. And we lost all our bright avation scientists to the US shortly there after...

[Canadaka]

Maybe its 'cause im a space nut, and a trekkie, but I beleive that Canada or the world community should focus more efforts into space exploration. it is truly the Final Frontier. There are so many amazing things to discover. The way things are going on this planet, were killing it, so space exploration might become even more important. To find other inhabitable planets, or to terraform one of our local planets like mars.

I think Canada can play a part in this, the recent disaster probably wont help NASA, but there are other means, other space programs around the world, and private sector projects. I think Canada could have been a pionerr in space travell today if the Avro Arrow was not scraped. I dont know if this is totaly factual but in the Movie THE AVRO ARROW. the lead engineer has concepts for the second arrow that can soar to the edge of space then jetisen payloads out of a bay into orbit, and then fly back to earth in a totaly reusable craft. I dont know if this was feasable, but if the program was not torn apart who knows what could have happened. Maybe its time for Canada to set forth on another large project like so many from the past that have made this country so great.

[electricbuford]

Well , the above post says it all as far as I'm concerned . At roughly $ 10,000 a pound , present costs for delivering payloads into space are , pardon the pun - astronomical . EACH shuttle launch costs approximately $ 500,000,000 , so maybe somebody should come up with a more cost effective means . I like the idea of single stage to orbit , because among other advantages , such a system would eliminate disposable parts left in orbit . Somehow , I find it disturbing that there are thousands of pieces of rocket parts circling around the planet at speeds up to 17,500 mph .The u.s. has experimented with spaceplanes since the 50's ( X- 15 , x- 33 , and more ) but , still uses the shuttle . Perhaps a good analogy would be like asking the big three automakers to switch over completely to hydrogen powered cars . Canada could certainly design and build a single stage to orbit vehicle ( SSTO ) , but it would take a hell of alot of money , and Canada does hav somewhat of a problem with the so called " brain drain " - highly skilled and creative canadians leaving Canada for the u.s. to make more money . It will be difficult to get the u.s. to put more into the space program because this country lacks focus , and a goal . Priority is placed on billions for the military , and space exploration is way down on the list . The apollo program had enormous support from the government because JFK wanted something that the u.s. could do and beat the russians in a race to the moon . After several successful landings , that was it , the public lost interest , NASA had it's funding drastically cut , and plans for going onto mars , and lunar bases , and lot's of other exciting projects got cancelled , or put on the shelf . If humans figured out how to get to the moon , from scratch , it seems to me that we could figure out a way to make an SSTO spaceplane . I say use aerogel in the construction of it .

[electricbuford]

Oh yeah , I almost forgot , I wanted to put this in my last post . Check out www.planetary.org . Go to that site and click on THE STORE , then click on POSTERS and check out the PALE BLUE DOT poster , click on it to enlarge the image enough to where you can read what it says , as well as taking a close look at the picture - I'm sure most people will be profoundly struck by this image and the words that go with it . If somebody can transfer the image to this site , that would be great , because I sure as hell don't know how to do it . And , for some excellent suggested reading : Carl Sagan's books : PALE BLUE DOT , THE DEMON HAUNTED WORLD : Science as a candle in the dark - especially with the part on the "baloney detection kit " , SHADOWS OF FORGOTTEN ANCESTORS , and BILLIONS AND BILLIONS . I have read all these , as well as other books by him including COSMOS , and I HIGHLY recommend them . Great reading that will widen anybody's horizons - but for those who are deeply religious , they may find his books a bit disturbing at times .

[RoyalHighlander]

(From Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space by Carl Sagan, Random House, 1994)

... Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there - on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors, so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light.

Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.


http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/pale_blue_dot.html

[electricbuford]

Excellent RH , hope everyone can appreciate it for what it is .

[Koopsta]

RH that was deep stuff. Napoleon and every world conquerer looks like more of a moron now.

Has anyone seen The Arrow though that was a great film and Deif looks like a moron which he was and deserved to be portrayed as in the context. The bomarc sucked and planes only today have reached the arrow's capability.

Dief the Beef

[blubs]

While I know this is an old thread I thought I should post a replie. I just moved back to Calgary last week and got an Apartment above the Avro Museum. On Ogden road, The man that runs it made the models for the show "Arrow" with Dan Ackroyd. This man did a fanatastic job so if any one wants to learn more about the Arrow just give me a shout. My computer is still in Burnaby tho.
Sure is nice to be back home.

[electricbuford]

Hobbycraft of Canada has recently released an updated a 1/48 Avro Arrow plastic model kit. It is an improved and more detailed version of an older kit they sold several years ago.I think it's selling for around $40.00 CDN , but shop around for a good price. For those of you not inclined to put model kits together, I'd suggest buying one anyway because it will probably always have collectable value in the Canadian model market.

[Canadaka]

Hmm very kewl. I used to be really into models. i would love to get that one. Maybe Santa will bring it!!!

[electricbuford]

My hobby is building plastic model aircraft.I only build RAF/commonwealth and a few luftwaffe aircraft from the second world war. If anyone on this site is interested in getting into the hobby and/or would just like some plastic modeling info and modeling links, just PM me and I'll be glad to help.

[Evan]

Well I'll tell you right up front. I am very patriotic as I'm sure you all are cause your on this site. But the topic of the Arrow brings anger rushing to the surface everytime anyone mentions it. I watched the movie and almost cried I was so pissed off! The only reason Canada didnt build it was because the Americans said , "But they beat our planes. booo hooo!!" They where pissed because the damned thing flew by so fast they couldnt get in their planes fast enough. Then the fuckers bought the design and hired our scientists and built planes for themselves. I'm getting pissed just typing this. I cant blame the American's need to be the best and be the ones in control. If it wasnt for the politicians overwhelming need to take it up the ass from the Americans, that still runs rampant today, then I think the Arrow would be in the Canadian airforce and we would be a major military manufacturer.

Buford, All we need to do is convince the Americans that there are aliens on pluto that want to destroy the universe, which would be america to the americans, and then they would develop wonderful space viechles and bases on plants. probably pretty fast too. But then when they found out there where no aliens then we would have to tell them that there where aliens somewhere and we just needed to get to them. lol. That would do it.

A bit off topic but I like to rub america's nose in it. I have the november addition of National Geographic and there is an artical on what nationalities live where and in what precent of the population in america. And the artical title is, GEOGRAPHICA The people, places, and creatures of our universe. and there is a big old picture of america, no alaska just america. lol. Universe indeed. Most arent even aware of their planet let alone universe. For further examples watch Talking to americans. lol. funny stuff.