[ziggy]

$1:

But just out of curiosity what would you do Zig to fix this problem to help an industry you don't work in, this of course being the key to your answers so far.

not anymore but I did spend 4 years logging and know a bit about stumpage rates and how the Ltp's are distributed,also my father in law owned a mill and worked in the bush all his life.
Maybe you should explain why the Yanks think the Canadian softwood industry is subsidized.
I dont know how to fix the problem,that's Emersons department now and if he was close to inking a deal then is that bad? Did'nt he work for the lumber industry,has a pension from them etc etc?

But trade sanctions arent the answer,I know that much.

[ziggy]

Numure Numure:

ziggy ziggy:

Start a trade war with our biggest trading partner,real good idea.Info for you,they dont have to buy our coal,slap a tax on it and find out how fast you put Candian miners on the dole.Then we would also have to tax China as they are Canada's biggest buyer of coal.

Slap a tax on gas and guess who also pays it? Us,the consumer,but if you want to run this country into the ground then tax's are the answer.

Man I hope all dippers dont think like you.

Slap a tax on energy exports to the US. Won't do any long term harm, China would jump on the occasion and get all the juicy energy.

In a trade war, with the US, we have the upper hand. Most of our exports, is in high demand accross the world. And energy, is something the US can't afford to loose a grip on. The US can't afford to loose their ''first grab'' status for Oil and Natural Gas. Cause then they would loose it to China.

Yup,slap a tax and see how fast China and the Yanks buy up more oilsands lease's,then you can pay what everyone else does because even though they cant own more then 50% they will do what they can to raise prices because in the end the energy companies will still be raking it in,you'll be taking it up the you know what,right,sure showed those yanks eh?

[Banff]

Numure Numure:

ziggy ziggy:

Start a trade war with our biggest trading partner,real good idea.Info for you,they dont have to buy our coal,slap a tax on it and find out how fast you put Candian miners on the dole.Then we would also have to tax China as they are Canada's biggest buyer of coal.

Slap a tax on gas and guess who also pays it? Us,the consumer,but if you want to run this country into the ground then tax's are the answer.

Man I hope all dippers dont think like you.

Slap a tax on energy exports to the US. Won't do any long term harm, China would jump on the occasion and get all the juicy energy.

In a trade war, with the US, we have the upper hand. Most of our exports, is in high demand accross the world. And energy, is something the US can't afford to loose a grip on. The US can't afford to loose their ''first grab'' status for Oil and Natural Gas. Cause then they would loose it to China.

I say let the bastards eat some taxes or bomb us to get what they need .

[ziggy]

Avro Avro:

$1:

i don't say oil because the states can get that from elsewhere.

We are nearly their biggest single supplier of oil if we aren't already and with messy situations in the middle east our oil is very attractive and not just to our neighbors either.

Play by the rules or don't play at all.

Too bad the Yanks own a sizeable chunk of the energy industry in Canada,not to mention energy such as gas is sold under rules made in two trade agreements going back 20 years because of the nep. We made the rules(EUB) and because of these rules our producer's are now safe from govt. meddling.

The only way we can shut down the gas(more rules) is if we have a shortage.

And who is this "we" Avro? you mean Alberta?
Remember resources are owned by the province that has it. You really dont have a say in our resources.

[ziggy]

Banff Banff:

Numure Numure:

ziggy ziggy:

Start a trade war with our biggest trading partner,real good idea.Info for you,they dont have to buy our coal,slap a tax on it and find out how fast you put Candian miners on the dole.Then we would also have to tax China as they are Canada's biggest buyer of coal.

Slap a tax on gas and guess who also pays it? Us,the consumer,but if you want to run this country into the ground then tax's are the answer.

Man I hope all dippers dont think like you.

Slap a tax on energy exports to the US. Won't do any long term harm, China would jump on the occasion and get all the juicy energy.

In a trade war, with the US, we have the upper hand. Most of our exports, is in high demand accross the world. And energy, is something the US can't afford to loose a grip on. The US can't afford to loose their ''first grab'' status for Oil and Natural Gas. Cause then they would loose it to China.

I say let the bastards eat some taxes or bomb us to get what they need .

Sure,I think the patriot act allows them to do that.

[Rev_Blair]

If we tax energy, they'll have to back down. We power their industry, their air conditioners and heat their houses. Don't worry about the coal, Ziggy...China will buy any we've got to spare.

The idea that we're powerless and must just do whatever the US wants us to is a typical defeatist attitude by people who think we should be a colony. This isn't the fur trade anymore. It's time to grow up as a nation.

[ziggy]

Rev_Blair Rev_Blair:

If we tax energy, they'll have to back down. We power their industry, their air conditioners and heat their houses. Don't worry about the coal, Ziggy...China will buy any we've got to spare.

The idea that we're powerless and must just do whatever the US wants us to is a typical defeatist attitude by people who think we should be a colony. This isn't the fur trade anymore. It's time to grow up as a nation.

Who's we?

You tax energy and Joe 6 pack will pay,more folks on the dole,inflation will rise,you'll hurt the very people you think your protecting by going on a vendetta against the states. There's more folks in Cali then all of Canada and you think you can win a trade war with the USA?
Give yer head a shake man.

[ziggy]

lily lily:

The US won the latest round at the WTO. That makes 2 victories... or maybe 3 if I missed one.

I think you know the answer anyway, ziggy... but the US figures we subsidize our lumber industry because we log crown, not private land. For the privilege, the logging companies pay a stumpage fee, which the Americans feel is too low (and the loggers feel is too high. )

Rather than get other industries involved, maybe we should just slow down the export of raw logs... that's what they want. Let the consumers down south pay the higher costs for a while. Let them do our complaining for us.

I know you come from a long line of loggers so know about stumpage rates and LTP's and how there handed out.
Maybe the rev and a few others will read up on why the states is fighting this instead of just useing it as an excuse to go after the States.

[QBC]

Well, NAFTA was supposed to cover this sort of thing, but the US threw that out when it ruled against them in this case of the softwood dispute. If the US politicians are not going to nuke the duty and give the money back they've taken already, no need going to the table for us.

I still think Canadian producers should make the US customers come get the lumber on our side of the line and they can pay the duty. That would get the US customers screaming at their politicians.

[Thematic-Device]

The fact is, both countries have been ignoring the aspects of the rulings that they don't like... Case in point the WTO ruling the US govt read the part about stumpage being a subsidy and stopped reading, the Canadian Govt read that the US tarriffs were illegal, and again... stopped reading.

So in the end negotiations may be the way to go, especially since they've solved the problems in the past...

Alternatively a lawsuit in US trade court stands a chance.

[ziggy]

Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:

The fact is, both countries have been ignoring the aspects of the rulings that they don't like... Case in point the WTO ruling the US govt read the part about stumpage being a subsidy and stopped reading, the Canadian Govt read that the US tarriffs were illegal, and again... stopped reading.

So in the end negotiations may be the way to go, especially since they've solved the problems in the past...

Alternatively a lawsuit in US trade court stands a chance.

According to Avro a deal is allmost done thanks to Emerson.
Avro said

$1:

First off I think a deal has already been reached and was about to be signed but then the government fell and the minister behind this deal was Emerson hence the cheeky hypocritcal move by Steven Liar Harper.

interesting

[Thematic-Device]

lily lily:

The US won the latest round at the WTO. That makes 2 victories... or maybe 3 if I missed one.

I think you know the answer anyway, ziggy... but the US figures we subsidize our lumber industry because we log crown, not private land. For the privilege, the logging companies pay a stumpage fee, which the Americans feel is too low (and the loggers feel is too high. )

To settle the issue one can simply index it to the costs faced by maritime loggers. Then it can never be argued that its too high or too low...

[ShepherdsDog]

the kind that look 'real' nice in your yard or lining your streets.

[camfromthecity21]

ziggy hang in because you are the voice of reason in this thread. We are a tiny blip on the radar, thats a good thing.