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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:30 am
 


Rev_Blair,

Ok, I am not going to repeat the argument of who can and who can't, or who insult more because this endless fruitless subject for the reason we are both talking from different prospective.

But certainly I want to ask you, WHY we should pull out of the NAFTA treaty?

Understandably that we can't cancel it because this treaty concerns the American continent and not us and the American alone, but certainly we can pull out of it.

As far as the Kyoto, it is given issue just because that what seems we are going after at this stage.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:20 am
 


I never insulted you, Human.

There are a few things you need to understand about NAFTA. Our exports to the US under NAFTA have actually grown less quickly under NAFTA than they grew before it. It effects our sovereignty by limiting our ability to institute environmental and health related laws (google MMT if you doubt that). The United States just ignores the decisions made by the NAFTA panel anyway (softwood lumber and wheat are just two examples of that). In other cases (industrial hemp for example) they create loop-holes to exclude out products through any means they can.

The biggest reason for pulling out of NAFTA is energy though. We have to sell them our oil and natural gas at the same price charged in our domestic market. We cannot reduce the amount of oil and gas going to them without reducing our own use by an equal amount.

There are two issues here. Natural gas is something we need to heat our homes. It is not a renewable resource and is becoming more and more expensive as US usage rises. They use it to power their industries and to heat their swimming pools, we use it to keep from freezing to death. We are, under NAFTA, required to keep selling it to them though.

The other issue is environmental. I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but on November 8 the Arctic Climate Impact Assessment report came out. It said, in no uncertain terms, that we are boned and if we don't drastically reduce our greenhouse gas emissions we'll be boned even worse. The United States has refused to sign Kyoto, has an energy plan that will cause an increase in greenhouse gases, and is the only country on the ACIA that is resisting suggesting corrective measures.

We could, as a way of persuading them to smarten up, reduce oil exports to them, but that is an option that is not available to us under NAFTA.

So the big reason for dropping out of NAFTA is that the US doesn't abide by it anyway and it damages our sovereignty. The implication of the effects on our sovereignty is wide-spread and goes far beyond trade or the economy.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:10 pm
 


Cant argue with that, Rev. Speaking of the artic, there are now wasps flying around up there. Thats never happened before.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:36 am
 


Rev_Blair Rev_Blair:
I never insulted you, Human.

There are a few things you need to understand about NAFTA. Our exports to the US under NAFTA have actually grown less quickly under NAFTA than they grew before it. It effects our sovereignty by limiting our ability to institute environmental and health related laws (google MMT if you doubt that). The United States just ignores the decisions made by the NAFTA panel anyway (softwood lumber and wheat are just two examples of that). In other cases (industrial hemp for example) they create loop-holes to exclude out products through any means they can.

The biggest reason for pulling out of NAFTA is energy though. We have to sell them our oil and natural gas at the same price charged in our domestic market. We cannot reduce the amount of oil and gas going to them without reducing our own use by an equal amount.

There are two issues here. Natural gas is something we need to heat our homes. It is not a renewable resource and is becoming more and more expensive as US usage rises. They use it to power their industries and to heat their swimming pools, we use it to keep from freezing to death. We are, under NAFTA, required to keep selling it to them though.

The other issue is environmental. I'm not sure if you are aware of it, but on November 8 the Arctic Climate Impact Assessment report came out. It said, in no uncertain terms, that we are boned and if we don't drastically reduce our greenhouse gas emissions we'll be boned even worse. The United States has refused to sign Kyoto, has an energy plan that will cause an increase in greenhouse gases, and is the only country on the ACIA that is resisting suggesting corrective measures.

We could, as a way of persuading them to smarten up, reduce oil exports to them, but that is an option that is not available to us under NAFTA.

So the big reason for dropping out of NAFTA is that the US doesn't abide by it anyway and it damages our sovereignty. The implication of the effects on our sovereignty is wide-spread and goes far beyond trade or the economy.





NAFTA is the EU of the future American continent, for sure such problems will arise, and as much as the Europeans countries suffered, and sacrificed for the common unity, this is our chance if we want create a common harmony and cooperation in our continent, but certainly Canada should find ways to insert the Koyoto Protocol as membership requirement to NAFTA and raise the stake of humanity’s interest instead of the economic interest alone.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:03 am
 


$1:
Show me the numbers Rev.


Go buy a book called "The Vanishing Country" by Mel Hurtig, Godz. He goes through the numbers very carefully.

$1:
Exports are largely determined by the overall productivity of domestic businesses.


Tell that to Canadian farmers and loggers, Godz. Tell that to the men who tried to ship industrial hemp to the US.

$1:
Your telling me that the growth of government bureaucracy will be slowed down due to free trade?


No, I'm telling you that the Canadian was successfully sued by Ethyl Corp. to force us to keep using a gasoline additive that has been banned in most US states because it poisons people. That is the reality of NAFTA.

$1:
Fucking hypocrite. What you call the CRTC then?


Arts and culture are protected within NAFTA.

By the way, the FCC also issues licenses and can keep foreign broadcasters out of the United States.

$1:
Yeah Laughing Hey why don't you go marching in the streets of Alberta telling them to stop selling oil to the US (One of the main reasons why they're becoming the most booming state and province in North America) and then try averting their bullets.


Watch the news...there's oil in other places than Alberta now. If Ralph King of the Assholes wants to take shots at me, let him. There are a lot of Albertans wondering why he didn't get Alberta as good a deal from US companies as Norway has, or at least as good as the one Loughheed had before him. The answer is rooted in Nafta.

$1:
Ah yes...the old "WERE ALL GONNA SUFFOCATE!!!!!" line from the tree-hugger lobby.


You arrogant, ignorant, idiot. Global warming is fact, buddy. Go check the report...hard scientific evidence. You won't do that though, because you aren't smart enough to think.

$1:
I'm not anti-enviorment.


You are anti-environment. You are also anti-science. Again though, don't listen to me, go do your own research. Learn for a change. It will keep you from sounding like a moron every single time you open your mouth.

$1:
Damn right. No country should accept this bullshit global baloney document that infringes on each country's individual sovreignty.


The US, with 6% of the world's population, burns 25% of the world's energy. It produces more greenhouse gas per capita than any other place on earth. Those gases are screwing up our climate in a very real way. The USA's sovereignty ends at the USA's borders. When their policies and actions have effects outside of those borders then they are affecting other nations' sovereignty, something they have no right to do.

$1:
You really think Albertans would be stupid enough to jeopdize its own economy don't you?


There is no reason why Alberta can't sell its oil to Europe and Asia, Godz.

$1:
"Damadges (sic) sovreignty" What the hell is the UN doing?


Trying to make the world a better, safer place.

$1:
More of us grow richer. As we now have more disposable income.


The real wage has dropped every year since the original FTA was signed. The gap between rich and poor has widened. The only entities truly benefitting are corporations.

$1:
But you know what the ONE major advantage free trade offers which the left refuses to bring up.....FREE TRADE STOPS WARS. That's it!!! FREE TRADE STOPS WARS.


You have no proof of that. China and Russia have made it very clear that they have already started work on missiles that will defeat BMD, so apparently they don't believe everything is hunky dory between them and the US.

On the other hand the US is funding mercenaries in Colombia to guard an oil pipeline. They kill and rape villagers, but that's okay. The CIA backed a coup to overthrow Hugo Chavez because he insists on trade deals that benefit the Venezuelan people. The Zapatista movement in Mexico is growing because of NAFTA. Free trade doesn't stop wars, it starts them.

$1:
That's why I always thought those anti-war signs in anti-globalization protests are contradictory.


You think that because you don't understand the issues. Globalisation, as it is being carried out by the US, is just another form of imperialism. If you consider their funding of para-militaries and the violence those groups use to enforce the will of US corporations on people, you would begin to understand that globalisation is just another facet of war.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:47 am
 


$1:
Mel Hurtig is well known for his ardent anti-americanism. And a big supporter of the NDP. Anyway, the numbers in his book don't show that exports have slowed down at all. What he's saying is that Canada's identity is being threatend with more and more economic integration with the US.


The numbers are there. Either read the book so you can make a cogent argument or admit that you haven;t got a clue.

$1:
Had it now been for the mad cow disease they would have not seen any slowdown in their exports.


What about wheat and hogs? What about the fact that scientist after scientist and trade expert after trade expert has stated that the current ban because of BSE has no basis in science.

$1:
YOU ARE SUCH A BULLSHITER!!! OH MY GOD!!! Never have I seen such anti-american hatred. If its proven that there is something that damadges the health NAFTA allows certain restrictions (e.g. Cigarettes, Firestone Tires etc)


I don't know how manage to walk around with your head up your ass like that, Godz.


radford
WLU

How Canada Became a Shill for the Ethyl Corp

$1:
No the CRTC simply restricts imports in this country in terms of television radio media. Which in other words is a violation of NAFTA.


No, the CRTC regulates how Canadian airwaves are used. Check their mandate.

$1:
"Arts and culture" have little to do with radio and televion.


Yes they do, you just have to watch more than American sit-coms

$1:
But if the socialists were that scared of the Canadian "identity" (Whatever the fuck that is) being threatned (sic). They can always make the CBC mandatory and people can exercise their right to ignore it (like they do now without hockey).


CBC is far more than HNIC and it has many more facets than just the basic channel. That you are too dim to understand that Canada actually has an identity separate from the United States explains your ignorance though.

$1:
The FCC DOESN'T limit the amount of foreign broadcats in the country, The main control is over content.


They have the power to pull broadcast licenses. Check their mandate.

$1:
Actually Ralph is about to be elected yet again!!! He has the highest approval rating in North America and most Albertans are very proud of the things he accomplished. Polls show he'll easily win the next election. Its understandable why you hate Ralph Klein. He proved that conservatives have the best polcies and therefore the most prosperous, pro-business atmosphere which brings prosperity and a debt-free budget.


You need to learn some facts. Alberta has a worse deal with US oil companies than Norway does. It has a much worse deal than it did under Lougheed. It would be much richer with somebody competent in charge. Ralph is coming under attack from the left, right, and centre for starving social programs. He's pissed a lot of farmers off with his support of sour gas wells and Cargill. He's not going to lose the election, but that's just because Alberta is so rich and traditionally conservative. If the province was at all short of money, he'd be out the door like a shot.

$1:
Global warming is a theory. A shit for brains theory in fact. Tempretures have been dropping and THAT my mentally-challenged friend, is a FACT. (P.S. Your link doesn't work).


You didn't check any further than the link did you? You never heard about this on the US news, you never read a magazine, you never picked up a paper. Here's a new link for you.

Global warming is very real. The greenhouse effect has been a known scientific fact for over a hundred years. The effects we are having on that effect are scientific fact. The United States is the only western nation on earth that doubts it, and even with that the CIA and military have come up with contingency plans because nobody who truly scientifically informed doubts the reality of global warming or its causes.

$1:
Here are some of the outrageously funny things that you have said in the past:

- The Media is conservative becuase Newspapers have business sections Laughing

-The missile shield is dangerous becuase it doesn't work. And even if it did, it would be bad for us as a missile could bounce off the US and hit Canada (Apparenlty missile defense is nothing but a big metal shild in the sky to your thinking) Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

- Castro is a fine statesmen.

- The Gulags were for people who stepped on too many toes.
Evil or Very Mad (Prick!!!)


Telling LIES again you worthless piece of crap? You take things out of context and twist them around. Don't be a fucking coward, put up links to the posts where I said thiose things. Fucking moron.



$1:
Screwing up our climate? I was wearing spring jackets in August!!!


Obviously you are too dim to understand the difference between global climate and regional temperature fluctuations. You certainly don't understand that one of the long-predicted effects of global warming is abnormal temperature and weather events...not just warming, but cooling in some places. The effects of normal weather patterns are magnified in some cases. That's been a part of the models since the beginning.

The arrogance it takes for an uneducated, scientifically ignorant little pissant like you sit there and say that 99% of the scientists on earth are wrong because if they are right it will make you a little less comfortable is incredible. Fucking luddite.



$1:
They already do!!! You make it sound that 100 per cent of the oil gets exported to the US. Now if you remove the US market, the demand goes fown BIG TIME. And the basic economic laws state that when demand goes down....so do the prices. If prices go down then so does Alberta's economy.


You ignorant little boy. The US will buy oil from someplace else and we will be able to sell to the markets that would have bought that oil otherwise. Since we don;t have stupid agreements like NAFTA with those other countries, we will be able to sell to them at world market rates while keeping our own prices lower.

Because of NAFTA the vast majority of our energy goes straight south. We pay the same as they do, often more because Ralphie couldn't negotiate a contract to save his life.

$1:
More leftist bullshit. Allright...Wages have increased in the last 10 years. The Quality of life has increased for evreyone. And evreyone is benefiting from cheaper food, transport, medicine and technology.


Check the numbers, Godz. The real wage, what you can buy with what you make, has gone down.

$1:
What the fuck do you mean I have no prrof of that?


I mean you have no proof of that. Besides, there were trade agreements between Germany and the US (WWI and II), Iraq and the US (The Gulf War), Britain and the US (US War of Independence), Britain/Canada and the US (War of 1812), Cuba and the US (Cuban Revolution), The US and the US (American Civil War).

Try the democracy one next...I just love writing Guatemala.

$1:
They might be working on some missiles but nothing's gonna happen. The economic linkage between them and the US will make it disaterous for both sides to start a war.


Don't bet on it. There's Taiwan. North Korea is still up in the air. Both China and Russia need the oil coming out Iran. The fact that China and Russia immediately started working on systems points to the fact that they do not trust the US and have not ruled out possible war.

$1:
They're funding mercernaries to fight a drug war. (Get your facts staright for ONCE!!!) P.S. I don't believe in the war on drugs either. So your debating the wrong guy.


Those drug warriors have been guarding an oil pipeline since Georgie got into power. Look it up.

$1:
Oh...Chavez..the people's president. That doesn't explain why the people keep rising against him almost every other day. He wrecked the Venezualan economy.


Actually the people rose up and demanded him back after the CIA backed coup. They also voted him back into power in US backed confidence motion over US-financed competitors. He hasn't wrecked the Venezuelan economy at all. He has provided schools and medical care to the Venezuelan people with the country's money.

$1:
Vicente Fox was elected as President in Mexico becuase he favored economic reform to go along the lines of a free economy. Socialists are widely hated in Mexico due to their corrution when they were in power.


Apparently you haven't been doing your homework.

$1:
Name two countires that have McDonalds operating in their countires that have engadged in war with one another. (As Thomas Freidman said, no tow nations who have a common MNE have ever gotten in war with one another).



That's just dumb. No two countries that have a GUM department store have ever gone to war either. Does that mean that communism worked?

$1:
Are Mcdonalds, GM, Microsoft and MTV doing something in Winnipeg that I'm not aware of??!!!


Apparently, but then you aren;t very aware of much at all so that's not surprising.


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