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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:04 pm
 


lily lily:
If the dregs "go away", you still have dregs.

You can never get rid of the bottom 6%.


If today's dregs went away, tomorrow's dregs would at least be able to feed themselves.

Shall I count your vote as "disagree"?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:02 am
 


USA-AOK USA-AOK:
Scape Scape:
I disagree with eugenics as a reason to deny care.


As do I. Government intervention is the true evil here.

Agree or disagree: The world would be a better place if the dregs just went away?


Government intervention has created the dregs via the 'fine' economy. There are jobs but skilled labour does not just appear it must be created and I have seen the US cut $40B in Medicare and Medicaid and student loans. The Canadian Health care system is cheaper than the US system on a per capita basis and in addition it also covers the entire population.

Demographics are not just going to up and disappear. There will be the very old and the very young that demand the most from the system. Medicare Woes in the US are in need of reform. In the UK they had public health and privatized the system, it ended up costing far more than the public system. So many having to choose between food, rent or prescription drugs in the US does not bode well for the argument for private healthcare.

Canada Health Act

Beautiful -- Privatized -- British Columbia?

The Case Against Private, For-Profit Hospitals


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:14 am
 


I like the case against private , for profit hospitals .
I find most all industries when through private for profit become so big they shit on everyone including government . Look at insurance companies of every kind . They manage to get a legislation which allows them to eliminate competition for lower rates thus making them far more expensive .


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:31 am
 


Scape Scape:
Who are you to judge?


Who are we to fund their healthcare?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:03 pm
 


Scape Scape:
Government intervention has created the dregs via the 'fine' economy. There are jobs but skilled labour does not just appear it must be created and I have seen the US cut $40B in Medicare and Medicaid and student loans.


So you are saying that government intervention created the dregs, but that more government intervention will make the problem go away?

Some people never learn. :(

$1:
The Canadian Health care system is cheaper than the US system on a per capita basis and in addition it also covers the entire population.


But oddly enough, it wouldn't exist in its current form if not for the American system. The R&D money that sustains it simply would not exist.

$1:
Demographics are not just going to up and disappear. There will be the very old and the very young that demand the most from the system.


The very old should have saved enough for their retirement. There is no excuse for them being on the public dole.

The very young should not have been born if their parents couldn't afford to raise them. Sterilization should be a precondition of receiving welfare benefits (until such time that welfare is abolished).

For a very long time, there was no "system" and people got along just fine. Health care is an easy problem that the private sector can solve.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:35 pm
 


USA-AOK USA-AOK:
Sterilization should be a precondition of receiving welfare benefits (until such time that welfare is abolished).


*ding* *ding* *ding* *ding* Alarm bells are ringing here.

Please read:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/forum/viewto ... opic=14875

Rabblewatch Rabblewatch:
Yep, I say if a single mom wants to apply for workfare, she can get it...so long as she gets her tubes tied, or if knocked up (within the first-second trimester) must get a mandatory abortion before she can get pogey (in the event that she had another child).


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:53 pm
 


USA-AOK USA-AOK:
The very old should have saved enough for their retirement. There is no excuse for them being on the public dole.

The very young should not have been born if their parents couldn't afford to raise them. Sterilization should be a precondition of receiving welfare benefits (until such time that welfare is abolished).

For a very long time, there was no "system" and people got along just fine. Health care is an easy problem that the private sector can solve.


"My friends, watch out for the little fellow with an idea." - Tommy Douglas 1961

$1:
Without the money to pay for a specialist, his parents were told that the only option was to amputate their son's leg before the infection spread to the rest of his body. But before that could happen, a visiting surgeon offered to operate on Douglas for free, as long as his students were allowed to attend. The surgery saved Douglas's leg - quite possibly his life - and would serve as his inspiration for his dream of universally accessible medical care.


That is the basis of the current system. It is a symbiotic, not parasitic relationship. IE the doctor has a steady job, the community gets treatment and the nation as a whole is stronger for it.

Had the US economy kept pace perhaps there would be no need to Medicaid as everyone would have jobs and more than enough money in the land of milk and honey to spare. The fact is that is not the case and millions are not even able to put food on the table let alone buy prescription drugs.

The argument of the old should have saved for prescription drugs that cost far more than when they were working and the young should not be born is ignoring reality. I find more common cause with the story of mouseland than the dog eat dog stories you tell. If I were to see someone in need of aid I would give it, even if it was someone like yourself. Philanthropy is not a weakness.

Do you know what bird flu is? Would it be in your best interest to care against an epidemic? Of course! As long as you see your fellow tax paying citizen as expendable and weak dregs then perhaps civilization is something you have yet to grasp.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:56 pm
 


DrCaleb DrCaleb:


Bad idea. Abortion is murder.

Voluntary sterilization in exchange for benefits is the only humane way to get the right outcome for our society.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:58 pm
 


USA AOK ; Looky here .... yes you have arguments to support your cause such as pre WW2 , it drove the Germans absolutely nuts to take care of those unable to care for themselves (expensive and maybe demeaning to both those who suffered and those who took care of them ) but why do you want to go that route and where is your happy medium about who should be cared for and who shouldn't ?
We are really not even on the topic anymore and conversing in old west style .

Around the time of confederation occasionally women coming here would have all their teeth pulled because there was no dentists or very few and it was all iodine , pliers , and slamming doors with string attached to your mouth . Maybe we've taken the whole medical care issue too far ... I dunno ...but do we really want to go there because it seems private health care fits into the old west category pretty good .


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:59 pm
 


Scape Scape:
That is the basis of the current system. It is a symbiotic, not parasitic relationship. IE the doctor has a steady job, the community gets treatment and the nation as a whole is stronger for it.


Yes, it is a symbiotic system. But the fact remains that Canadians pay only the marginal cost of care, not the up-front costs required to invent and test that treatment.

$1:
Had the US economy kept pace perhaps there would be no need to Medicaid as everyone would have jobs and more than enough money in the land of milk and honey to spare. The fact is that is not the case and millions are not even able to put food on the table let alone buy prescription drugs.


You blame "the economy." I blame "the lazy." The USA is the richest country in the world. Anybody who can't find a means to feed themself down there has no value as a human being.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:02 pm
 


Banff Banff:
where is your happy medium about who should be cared for and who shouldn't ?


It's really quite simple: If you are not willing to pay the market price for something, be it health care, an Xbox 360, or a new Benz, nobody else will be robbed to provide it for you.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:09 pm
 


The old saying "what goes around comes around" or "you get what you give"....boy USA-AOK you have got some seriously bad shit coming your way man....I do not know how you can or do live your life, but I can assure you right now that you have got something bad coming your way....your attitude in this world will be adjusted. One day perhaps you will be glad your actually in a country that cares for each other and not one that could throw you aside and not give a shit about you ever again.

There is obviously no changing your mind in this forum, but I know life will do that for us all. It always does.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:09 pm
 


USA-AOK USA-AOK:
Banff Banff:
where is your happy medium about who should be cared for and who shouldn't ?


It's really quite simple: If you are not willing to pay the market price for something, be it health care, an Xbox 360, or a new Benz, nobody else will be robbed to provide it for you.


Oh really. Say you need a life-saving surgery that costs $90,000 (which happened to my friend's dad recently), then it's too bad eh?

I can think of some appropriate karma for you AOK.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:15 pm
 


The whole issue is a tough call but obviously Northland came here all freaked out about the cost of US health care and his stories are plentiful by americans . I hear about them often .

I sort of gather you like Clint Eastwood movies and so do I but imagine how many military personel have been given the royal shaft and should we keep a soldier with his blown off legs for 50 ish years for fighting for his country or tell him , "tough luck bud" ?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:17 pm
 


Scape Scape:
That is the basis of the current system. It is a symbiotic, not parasitic relationship. IE the doctor has a steady job, the community gets treatment and the nation as a whole is stronger for it.


USA-AOK USA-AOK:
Yes, it is a symbiotic system. But the fact remains that Canadians pay only the marginal cost of care, not the up-front costs required to invent and test that treatment.


Health Care Spending Facts

$1:
* Our province is spending over $11.6 billion in 2005/06 on health care.
* We increased health care funding to over 43% of the total provincial budget.
* Health care costs in BC have increased twice as fast as the economy.
* To direct more health care funding back into patient care, we've streamlined the number of health authorities from 52 to six, helping achieve savings of up to $100 million dollars in administrative and support services.


As I have stated before the baby boomer generation is nearing retirement. They will transition from income earners and their health needs cost will be rising. I too have though about putting them on an iceberg and have them drift off however global warming has nixed that idea. The boomers have been paying into the system their entire working lives and then at the point they need it most the system will be there for them. It is an investment and should be seen as such. Keep in mind when the system was 1st created the funding was shared 50-50 between federal and provincial governments. That has since changed radically at one point the fed dropped their coverage to under 15% they have since raised that level but what that created was instead of one system there are now 13 and cracks have appeared. What is covered in one province may not be covered in another. Generally the richer provence's have the more robust coverage.

So in effect to create a surplus on their own books the federal government cut corners. The provinces have not dropped the ball but you must see that the burden of maintaining the leading end research is much greater. Now with the boomers entering retirement research will again be put on the back burner until the current demographic crisis is resolved. All the while there is the skilled manpower shortage that is now global in scope further pushing up the cost of care.

$1:
Had the US economy kept pace perhaps there would be no need to Medicaid as everyone would have jobs and more than enough money in the land of milk and honey to spare. The fact is that is not the case and millions are not even able to put food on the table let alone buy prescription drugs.


USA-AOK USA-AOK:
You blame "the economy." I blame "the lazy." The USA is the richest country in the world. Anybody who can't find a means to feed themself down there has no value as a human being.


Tell that to a port worker in NOLA or to the manufacturing sector. Jobs come and go but in the transient periods instead of throwing skilled labour to the trash heap why not open a few doors instead. 'Lazy' has nothing to do with million in the lines for soup kitchens it is a symptom of a failing system.


Last edited by Scape on Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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