[RoyalHighlander]

canadian1971 canadian1971:

Dam straight brother.


What we should look at is the Devils Brigade...An American/Canadian unit that was one of the best. On thier first mission, they captured the town of (?) San Dalie (?), Italy and took 200 prisoners without losing a single man..5-6 were wounded. Pretty good show for your first time out I'd say!

if you got that from the movie you may want to research the info.. I served under an officer who was one of the officers/members of that unit.. I posted his obit here a while back that had the info.. Ill try to find it and rep[ost it here...

[RoyalHighlander]

http://www.canadaka.net/modules.php?nam ... ght=bourne
A Great Man has passed
I had the honour of serving under him and knowing this great man, as did Fred Fisher VC. He was one of the founding officers of the "REAL" Devils Brigade that the movie was based on...
This is an e-mail I recived yesterday


This message has been sent to all who have
subscribed to the e-mail list through the
Black Watch of Canada web site.

One of the pillars of our Regiment has passed
away. Col. Bourne served as the Colonel of
the Regiment and Honourary Colonel for many years.
Of late, he has been hospitalized in Ste. Anne's
Veterans Hospital where he succumbed to his illnesses
on Sunday night.

Retired. Formerly Chairman of Atlas Construction Inc.
Past President of Quebec Road Builders Association.
Past President, Montreal Construction Association.
McGill University Canadian Officer Training Corps 1935.
Officer RHC 1937. 1 RHC 1939 42 Canada and United Kingdom.
lst Special Service Force (Devil's Brigade), United States,
Aleutian Islands, Italy, and France during which time
he was Battalion Commander from 1942-44. Various appointments
in Regiment after World War II. Commanding Officer from 1953-55.
Colonel of the Regiment from 1968-73. Appointed Honorary Colonel
in 1973. Retired from Regiment in November 1987 after 50
years service.

His funeral will be a large affair and the details
are as follows:

Visitation: Thursday 12 Dec 02
1400-1700 hours and 1900-2100 hours
Collins, Clarke, MCGillivary & White
5610 Sherbrooke Street West
Montreal, Quebec
(514) 483-1870

Regimental Funeral: Friday 13 Dec 02
1100 hours
Church of St. Andrew & St. Paul
Sherbrooke Street at Redpath

Dress for serving members:
CF with spats and hair sporran
Medals

Further details can be read here:
http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/cgi/dcforum/dcboard.cgi

under the Fallen Comrades forum.
___________________________________________


Although it may sometimes seem
they have been forgotten
in today's atomic world
their personalities still live
in our memories
for without their gift
we should not be here today

[RoyalHighlander]

$1:

Now the Royal Family is another thing - the Queen Mother was a known Nazi sympathizer, and I'm sure that extended to a good portion of the rest of the inbred European family of royals.

Wrong royal buddy try again.. The US helped the UK greatly from the beginning,, I think even earlier, but was in secret.. Apart from supplies the US shared info also.. info gleaned from the Jap code that had been broken... The US did QUITE A LOT before she "officially" entered the fray

[dgthe3]

Perhaps my source was highly anti-american, but i think that in the late 30's or very early 40's the Americans were trying to decide who they wanted to side with, Germany or England. Or in another way of thinking, Germany or Russia. That was probably a very difficult choice. At the time, Germany probably seemed like the lesser of two evils.

[Nate_7]

Sorry, coming to this thread alittle late.
In World War I, Canada had more boys in the armed forces on ratio per population than ANY other country. Period.

And that was my 2 cents...

[canadian1971]

$1:

What we should look at is the Devils Brigade...An American/Canadian unit that was one of the best. On thier first mission, they captured the town of (?) San Dalie (?), Italy and took 200 prisoners without losing a single man..5-6 were wounded. Pretty good show for your first time out I'd say!

This is second hand info....

$1:

if you got that from the movie you may want to research the info.. I served under an officer who was one of the officers/members of that unit.. I posted his obit here a while back that had the info.. Ill try to find it and rep[ost it here...

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Newfie Scott]

RoyalHighlander RoyalHighlander:

$1:

Now the Royal Family is another thing - the Queen Mother was a known Nazi sympathizer, and I'm sure that extended to a good portion of the rest of the inbred European family of royals.

Wrong royal buddy try again.. The US helped the UK greatly from the beginning,, I think even earlier, but was in secret.. Apart from supplies the US shared info also.. info gleaned from the Jap code that had been broken... The US did QUITE A LOT before she "officially" entered the fray

Um, RoyalHighlander, that's basically what I said in the first part of that post - I merely mentioned lend-lease since it is the most common way in which the US tended to help the allies when it wasn't officially in either world war. Actually have no idea why you quoted the second part of my original post - you response doesn't seem to have anything to do with it....

[CanadianLynx]

dgthe3 dgthe3:

In absolute terms, the US contributed more men and materials than Canada did. But Canada sent almost everything that we could while the Americans were figuring out who to side with. We were also a vital training ground for aircrews, we were the 'safe house' for the Royal family i believe, we had several POW camps, and Halifax was the staging point for many many convoys. By the end of the war we had the third largest navy in the world. The devils brigade was a fearsom group of wariors that became the foundation for the Americans Comando units. In Italy, we did a lot of the dirty work so the Brits could take the glory, unless the Americans took claim of our work first.

I don't mean to say here that America did nothing, but Canada could have done no more than what we did.

[CanadianLynx]

Forget about the war overseas.The real war was fought here at the battle of the Gulf of St.Lawrence
Without the defeat of the german u-boats no supplies would reach the troops overseas.
Also say a few prayers for the people who lost their lives from the sinking of the ss caribou

[-Mario-]

Mustang1 Mustang1:

-Mario- -Mario-:

Here is a fact... without Canada's contribution; The Japanese fleet would had won at Midway...

Discuss....

...uhh...could you elaborate on this?

When the Savior of Ceylon spotted the Japanese fleet, He directly cause the the Japanese fleet to have one aircraft carrier to return to Japan because of the lack of aircrafts. I was lucky to see Col. Birchall's breifing in Greenwood, NS. He explained how, by him spotting the Japanese fleet, it affected to turn of the war in the Pacific (including midway).

[Mustang1]

-Mario- -Mario-:

Mustang1 Mustang1:

-Mario- -Mario-:

Here is a fact... without Canada's contribution; The Japanese fleet would had won at Midway...

Discuss....

...uhh...could you elaborate on this?

When the Savior of Ceylon spotted the Japanese fleet, He directly cause the the Japanese fleet to have one aircraft carrier to return to Japan because of the lack of aircrafts. I was lucky to see Col. Birchall's breifing in Greenwood, NS. He explained how, by him spotting the Japanese fleet, it affected to turn of the war in the Pacific (including midway).

Midway – read the link, somewhat of a stretch (actually, a whopping big butterfly effect) concluding that this turned the tide in the Pacific theatre – consider the following:

In retrospect many have argued that the Midway engagement stretched Japanese naval powers too thin and was too risky for both economic reasons (Japan, if it suffered a resounding defeat, did not have the industrial capabilities to a maintain naval offensive) and national morale. The decisive American victory marked not only the turning point in the Pacific theatre, it signalled the end to the Japanese offensive (shinko sakusen) and their slim chances for victory.

Was it luck or planning (or execution) or both that allowed the United States to defeat Japan at Midway? Like most military engagements, it’s probable a combination.

U.S. Strategy and Tactics (for victory)

1. Magic – Japanese code (JN-25 – I think that’s what it was called) breaking allowed Nimitz strategic advantage

2. Nimitz recognized – through intelligence analysis – that Midway (not Hawaii or eastern U.S. coast) would be target of Japanese offensive. He prepared accordingly

3. Yorktown – largely through American improvisation – was repaired in time for Midway operation – this increased American naval power in theatre of operations

4. Keep U.S. carrier involvement in Midway secret until needed – Nimitz also pulled submarines back from normal operations (can’t remember how many though)

5. Attack Nagumo’s carriers – naval airpower was recognized (by Nimitz) as key to Pacific campaign victory – If Japan’s naval airpower ability was compromised, their eventual failure would be almost guaranteed

6. Fletcher separated U.S. Task Forces (although limiting combined attack strength) thus eliminating one large concentrated American target for Japanese.

7. Calculated Risk – Nimitz knew that if Spruance and “Blackjack” Fletcher missed the opportunity to eliminate the four Japanese carriers, the Pacific would be at the mercy of the Japanese Navy. The risk, although significant, did not outweigh the strategic (or morale-building) value of victory

8. U.S. ability to rely on intelligence – tactical sighting revealed invasion landing force, but U.S. wisely waited for Japanese carrier approach

9. Execution – U.S. accomplished its battle objectives

Japanese errors, of course, also affected the outcome of the battle. While I agree that luck (for instance, a Japanese dive-bomber was shot down on approach to the Yorktown, but its bomb hit the flight deck anyway) always plays a hand in any encounter, it is planning and execution (and Japanese errors) that ultimately decided this battle.

[-Mario-]

Very good facts for what happen that day Mustang, But you see, the Japanese fleet was on their way to attack Ceylon, when they were spotted. They launch their armada of planes for the attack, and the Brits sent about 2 dozens of planes to attack the carriers. Long story short the Japanese carriers recall the attack. Bombers had compass but not the fighters. I am not sure how many fighters got lost on their way back but it was enough to justify to sent back a carrier back home... due to the lack of fighters. Now... if at midway, the Japanese would had the fighters... lets imagine, fighters go and meet the american planes in dogfight while the Japanese bombers refuel and resupply. Freshly fueled japanese bombers go against the american fleet, which got busy against the Jap fighters... the rest would had been history. Funny how one Canadian made a huge difference at Midway.

And this is a short version of what Col. Birchall's brief mentioned. He also talked about the concentration camps in Japan.

[PJB]

No American will ever give any credit for any of the "American" victories in the Pacific theatre during WWII to any other nation. Americans are proud of the achievements of Americans in every war whether true or not.

Ask any American who won World War II and they will say 'we did'. Ask them who was first into Germany and they will say 'we were'. Ask them who won the Vietnam war and listen to the silence.

[Mustang1]

-Mario- -Mario-:

Very good facts for what happen that day Mustang, But you see, the Japanese fleet was on their way to attack Ceylon, when they were spotted. They launch their armada of planes for the attack, and the Brits sent about 2 dozens of planes to attack the carriers. Long story short the Japanese carriers recall the attack. Bombers had compass but not the fighters. I am not sure how many fighters got lost on their way back but it was enough to justify to sent back a carrier back home... due to the lack of fighters. Now... if at midway, the Japanese would had the fighters... lets imagine, fighters go and meet the american planes in dogfight while the Japanese bombers refuel and resupply. Freshly fueled japanese bombers go against the american fleet, which got busy against the Jap fighters... the rest would had been history. Funny how one Canadian made a huge difference at Midway.

And this is a short version of what Col. Birchall's brief mentioned. He also talked about the concentration camps in Japan.

Your “Midway” analysis is still a little sketchy (you really didn’t address the link between one of my historical causes –which, I’d argue wasn’t adversely affected by Ceylon battle)

Consider the following, Japanese operations AL and MI were designed to establish a new forward defence line running from the Aleutians through Midway, Wake Island, the Marshalls, the Gilbert islands and the southern Solomons to Port Moresby while, secondly, and arguably, most importantly, to force the destruction of the remaining surface fleet of the U.S. fleet in the decisive fleet engagement of the Pacific theatre, that was at the heart of Japanese strategic planning. Japan’s N-Day was always designed to allow Nagumo’s INDIAN OCEAN fleet (although it wasn’t as large an operation as intended as the Army vetoed its role) to recuperate (after Ceylon) and there is no relevant text information that even suggests you ‘encounter’ was as significant as CORAL SEA (which didn’t impede Midway’s operational status decision, despite the loss of 2 carriers!). To suggest that the loss of aircraft at Ceylon (the aircrew were more important anyway) measurably and directly resulted in the victory at Midway is historically invalid as it omits a host of other variables (those already noted in my previous thread).

I can’t deny the historical reality that experienced Japanese aircrew probably provided a disadvantage to Japanese forces at Midway, but to conclude that “aircraft” shortage (primarily as a result of Ceylon and disregarding Coral Sea) was a main factor (you claimed “the difference”) neglects other more tangible factors. It’s a tentative link that is more speculation than hard objective fact. Besides, it still doesn’t address the myriad of other variables that affected the battle’s outcome. That’s more important than largely speculative history.

[-Mario-]

Hey mustang.... I am sorry for the long wait, I was putting my daughter to bed. I was quick in my results, and you are right... Coral sea battle wouldn't been a factor here. Plus I made a mistake, there was seven carriers at Ceylon, not six. Anyway, Seven carriers with a mix of fighters and bombers, and most of the loss at Ceylon were fighters, enough to send a carrier back home for re-equip. The question is: would one more carrier had made a difference at midway?