[ASLplease]

i hear shock and horror about toxic tailings ponds.......

but, thats what tailings ponds for!

[Zipperfish]

Shale oil is limited by thermodynamics as well. One study I read said that a oil concentration of less than 25 gpt, the process is not self-sufficient (i.e. it takes more energy to extract the oil than you gain by burning it). This is one ofthe reasons that Alberta floats the idea of a nuclear power plant in the area--so that they are not burning oil to produce oil.

[Arctic_Menace]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

bootlegga bootlegga:

Yeah, that free speech thing really sucks, doesn't it?

It sucks? Then I guess it's a good thing you don't have it in Canada, isn't it?

[herbie]

How about we compromise? The world needs the oil, we need the money and we'll clean it up when we're done. Which we can do in Alberta without ruining a coastline, a fishing industry and tourism. You tourists didn't even know that part of the province existed before, there ain't nothin' to see, it ain't fucking Jasper.
And we'll stop flat out denying it's a disgusting ugly mess around there with zero environmental impact.

[DrCaleb]

herbie herbie:

And we'll stop flat out denying it's a disgusting ugly mess around there with zero environmental impact.

http://www.capp.ca/canadaIndustry/oilSa ... -Tour.aspx

That's the same attitude many people seem to have, until they see the result. The production stage is something to behold - but afterwards it is returned to be exactly the same as the land was before mining began. The net result is zero.

[Zipperfish]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

That's the same attitude many people seem to have, until they see the result. The production stage is something to behold - but afterwards it is returned to be exactly the same as the land was before mining began. The net result is zero.

Well, I'm not sure I'd say the net result is zero. On geologic time scales, the area will return to the same as it was, barring any ice ages or other upheavals. But the hydrology, hydrogeology, geochemistry and water quality of the area will be changed.

For an example of the time scale of mining impacts, there are still acid rock draingae issues from Roman mines. (Just an example: I don't believe that ARD is an issue with oil sands mining.)

It's really just an application of the Second Law of Thermodynamics--if you extract work from a system (i.e. oil) then you necessary degrade that system.

[DrCaleb]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

That's the same attitude many people seem to have, until they see the result. The production stage is something to behold - but afterwards it is returned to be exactly the same as the land was before mining began. The net result is zero.

Well, I'm not sure I'd say the net result is zero. On geologic time scales, the area will return to the same as it was, barring any ice ages or other upheavals. But the hydrology, hydrogeology, geochemistry and water quality of the area will be changed.

For the better. As it is now, oil in the sand leeches into the water table. Remove the oil, put back the sand = less oil in the water table.

I guess you have to see the reclaimed land to really understand how it is no different than the surrounding environment, except now there are two large freshwater lakes where land used to be. You can actually see a picture in that link.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

For an example of the time scale of mining impacts, there are still acid rock draingae issues from Roman mines. (Just an example: I don't believe that ARD is an issue with oil sands mining.)

It's really just an application of the Second Law of Thermodynamics--if you extract work from a system (i.e. oil) then you necessary degrade that system.

No, oilsands is a different beast. No minerals that react with water to produce acid are left open to the elements.

I have to wonder too, if these 'reactionaries' really boycott all oil products in order to 'walk the walk'. Or are they just trying to make names for themselves. Because the names I have for them are not very polite.

[Zipperfish]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

For the better. As it is now, oil in the sand leeches into the water table. Remove the oil, put back the sand = less oil in the water table.

I guess you have to see the reclaimed land to really understand how it is no different than the surrounding environment, except now there are two large freshwater lakes where land used to be. You can actually see a picture in that link.

The picture looks nice. There's a lot more to reclamation though. Wetland reclamation remains a challenge, for example,and those types of specialized eco-subsystems that exist in the Boreal. Mine reclmation in BC is a big deal (though it's mostly metal and coal mines here).

I'm not saying it can't be done, I just think you're fooling yourself if you think that strip mining on that scale will have no impact. The reclaimed area will be different than the original land. The environment will adapt, but there is an energy cost associated to adaptation.

Kepp in mind, I'm all for the oil sands, but I'm also realistic about the cost to the ecosystem locally (reclaimed land), regionally (water quality) and globally (CO2 emissions).

$1:

I have to wonder too, if these 'reactionaries' really boycott all oil products in order to 'walk the walk'. Or are they just trying to make names for themselves. Because the names I have for them are not very polite.

I don't think they've "done the math." That's about the most polite thing I could say about them.

[bootlegga]

DrCaleb DrCaleb:

herbie herbie:

And we'll stop flat out denying it's a disgusting ugly mess around there with zero environmental impact.

http://www.capp.ca/canadaIndustry/oilSa ... -Tour.aspx

That's the same attitude many people seem to have, until they see the result. The production stage is something to behold - but afterwards it is returned to be exactly the same as the land was before mining began. The net result is zero.

From what I've heard from people in the industry, it definitely isn't zero impact.

They can put the land back the way it as prior to digging up the oil sands, but the refining process kills off all of the microorganisms that life needs to thrive. What you wind up with is land that looks nice but can't support life properly. So you wind up with trees and plants growing in dirt that needs constant maintenance or it will die off and become a lunar landscape again. That of course costs a bloody fortune and is why so little land has been reclaimed to date. Research is ongoing, but they still haven't found the answer yet.

I'm sure in time, the environment will repair itself, but there is an impact to the mining operation.

Don't get me wrong, I fully support the oil sands, but there is still a lot of work to be done up there. I'm not hopeful that our pro-business government will make sure that the companies making billions of dollars off of it will properly clean up after they're finished, and the only way to do that is with public opinion IMHO.

[Alta_redneck]

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The reclaimed area will be different than the original land.

Yeah your right, there won't be any ponds of oil that we have to watch out for when we're out enjoying the wilderness up there. Seeing Bambi with nothing but his nose sticking out of a tar pit is not a nice thing to see.

And thanks to the Sun for the laugh this morning.

[GreenTiger]

Why Americans are getting so flustered over Alberta's oil sands is beyond me. We are able to purchase oil from a country that we like. The oil producers will reclaim the land once they are done. What is the big F. Deal?

If you want to get get mad about a lawless border sapping our strength then bitch about the Mexican border like I do. There we have a good reason to get pissed of and if the Mexicans don't like us denigrating their national industry (Illegal drugs) excellent!

[BartSimpson]

kenmore kenmore:

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

Don't you just love liberals?

What the f.... does this have to do with the liberals? explain

You don't know much about San Francisco, do you?

[BartSimpson]

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

Why Americans are getting so flustered over Alberta's oil sands is beyond me.

I'm not. I'd rather see my oil dollars go to Canada than to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, Venezuela, and etc.

[hurley_108]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

hurley_108 hurley_108:

Yea. The nightly raids by the RCTP (Royal Canadian Thought Police) are really getting on my nerves.

The CHRC getting on your butt, too, eh?

Please. One dickbag gets hauled up in front of one, coaxing out exactly the response he was looking for, and then gets cleared by it. Where's the infringement?

Some Guy Some Guy:

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Your government deprives people of their lives when they execute. I'd see that as a bigger infringement of rights than some jerk getting the fight he was spoiling for.

[GreenTiger]

BartSimpson BartSimpson:

GreenTiger GreenTiger:

Why Americans are getting so flustered over Alberta's oil sands is beyond me.

I'm not. I'd rather see my oil dollars go to Canada than to Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Indonesia, Venezuela, and etc.

I'd rather deal with intelligent civilized folks rather than the wackos in Saudi Arabia, Venezuela. In fact (to stir things up) English speaking civilized people.